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Forums - General Discussion - Why Obama is an idiot (Quotes)

Rath on 06 July 2009

The US system is heavily biased towards the rich, like pretty much every other system in America.

I agree that if you are rich and you are in America you get fantastic healthcare, if you're poor and in America you don't get anywhere near good enough healthcare.



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Kasz216 on 06 July 2009
Khuutra said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Khuutra said:
sguy78 said:
All you have to do is look to our neighbors up north to see that government run healthcare is a joke.

Actually this is nonsensical in other ways. Do you think that Canada is the only country with socialized healthcare? What about the UK? Or France? Or pretty much any first-world nation that isn't the United States? Do you know how low the WHO ranks the US in terms of its healthcare system? Are you going to suggest that we have the best healthcare system in the modern world?

Here is a hint: we don't. Socialized healthcare is the norm. In most civilized nations, healthcare is a right, not a privilege. For a lot of folks in the Western world, the idea of losing socialized healthcare is probably the worst thing you could confront a person with.

If you are going to argue for socialized medicine, you might not want to use the WHO as an argument. There means of measuring countries is extremely flawed.

For example, they rate uniform quality of care. So if in the US the worst care a person gets is say 50% of optimum, and the best care a person in the US gets is 100%, we are scored lower then another country if that entire country gets 20% of optimum.

They have several other metrics that don’t tell the real story with respect to how well your taken care of if you need medical attention.

I don't know enough about the WHO to formulate an argument that would be either well-informed or particularly well-reasoned, but that doesn't take away from the rest of my post.

Seems like famousringo might be more on the up and up in that respect I guess?

Point being that Canada's healthcare is better than ours! There! I said it!

I've actually read the WHO report and how they get their numbers.

Patients health is never even considered. 

The only metric out of about 12 that consider actual healthcare coverage is the question "How Healthy do you feel."

Which is so socially biased it's ridiculious. 



sguy78 on 06 July 2009
Legend11 said:
sguy78 said:
Chris Hu said:
If the US health care system was really that great which it is not their would be no US citizens participating in medical tourism. Sure if you are filthy rich you can get the best medical attention in the US but if you are filthy rich you can buy the best medical attention no matter where you live in the world lots of money buys great medical care what else is new.

So why are Canadians coming across the border into the U.S. to get medical care?


Probably the same reason why Americans come across the border to get care in the Canadian system.  It doesn't matter if better care is available if a person is unable to afford it.  I'm willing to bet if you took a poll of Americans and Canadians and asked if they would want their country to switch to the other's system of medicare that the vast majority of Canadians would say no.  If the American system is so much better why would that be the case?

As for wait times there's a shortage of doctors in Canada and it's severe in some areas.  The reason being that many Canadian doctors are lured to the United States because they're able to make more money in that system.  It's especially annoying when you consider the fact that their education is subsidized by Canadian tax dollars.

I also think people need to take a step back from media coverage of the system, especially when there may be hidden agendas involved.  For example I remember stories by U.S. media warning American citizens not to buy their perscription drugs in Canada because it might be dangerous.  It was pretty ridiculous considering our system is more strict and the people would be getting the same drugs they would have gotten in the United States.  You know the ones made in the exact same factories by the exact same group of people.

Those doctors are coming here to make more money. I don't begrudge them for that. I don't want people to die on the streets, and that isn't happening anyway. I have a problem with the government taking everything over. Social Security is a perfect example. It is flawed. Our government only has the idea to throw more money at a program that doesn't work, instead of getting rid of it, or changing it.



Kasz216 on 06 July 2009
Rath said:
The US system is heavily biased towards the rich, like pretty much every other system in America.

I agree that if you are rich and you are in America you get fantastic healthcare, if you're poor and in America you don't get anywhere near good enough healthcare.

Actually the poor in America get Medicaid.  Medicaid is good healthcare.

It's more the lower middle class get bad healthcare/middleclass.

People who aren't considered poor enough but don't want to pay for health insurance because they'd rather gamble and turn that extra money towards making themselves more rich or buying something they want... etc.

That and very rare examples of people who are too sickly to be insured.  Those people could use some government help somehow.



Chris Hu on 06 July 2009
Legend11 said:
sguy78 said:
Chris Hu said:
If the US health care system was really that great which it is not their would be no US citizens participating in medical tourism. Sure if you are filthy rich you can get the best medical attention in the US but if you are filthy rich you can buy the best medical attention no matter where you live in the world lots of money buys great medical care what else is new.

So why are Canadians coming across the border into the U.S. to get medical care?


Probably the same reason why Americans come across the border to get care in the Canadian system.  It doesn't matter if better care is available if a person is unable to afford it.  I'm willing to bet if you took a poll of Americans and Canadians and asked if they would want their country to switch to the other's system of medicare that the vast majority of Canadians would say no.  If the American system is so much better why would that be the case?

As for wait times there's a shortage of doctors in Canada and it's severe in some areas.  The reason being that many Canadian doctors are lured to the United States because they're able to make more money in that system.  It's especially annoying when you consider the fact that their education is subsidized by Canadian tax dollars.

I also think people need to take a step back from media coverage of the system, especially when there may be hidden agendas involved.  For example I remember stories by U.S. media warning American citizens not to buy their perscription drugs in Canada because it might be dangerous.  It was pretty ridiculous considering our system is more strict and the people would be getting the same drugs they would have gotten in the United States.  You know the ones made in the exact same factories by the exact same group of people.

Great point of course the US has top notch doctors because they can make more money working in the US then any other country in the world same thing can be said about lawyers in the US.



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TheRealMafoo on 06 July 2009
tombi123 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
tombi123 said:
TheRealMafoo said:
Khuutra said:

Decent facts, incorrect conclusion. The only metric you'e using here is time taken in order to get treatment for specific problems! Is that not too narrow a set of criteria for saying where a person is better off? What about the ability to get normal checkups at all? Or not having to worry about paying for the cost of surgeries, or ambulance bills? There are too many people who don't seek out medical care just because they think they can't afford it. Hell, my own father isn't seeking out surgery that would improve his health immensely because he doesn't think he would be able to afford it, regardless of whether or not he actually could.

That's not a worry in Canada. That counts for a lot.

I guess it all boils down to what you want out of a system. anywhereThe US, if you can afford it, offers much better health services then Canada (or  anywhere else in the world for that matter). If you can't afford it (or don't think you can), then the piece of mind of socialized medicine is best for you.

I prefer to live in a country will a much higher upper bound, that you have to work to achieve. It's why I like what the US used to be all about. Nothing is given to you, and it's hard work to get what you want, but the possibilities are endless.

 


So you dismissed the WHO tables as flawed, and then you said USA has the best healthcare system in the world without backing that up with a link... I'm sorry but if the WHO think the USA has the 27th best healthcare system in the world, you can't translate that into, the USA has the best healthcare system in the world.

I didn't say they had the best system in the world, just the best healthcare. Based on what some consider a good system, we might be as low as 27th.

I for one, would rather have a system where people earn better healthcare, and then go earn it. For others, that might not be the best system.

For someone like me however, I end up with better healthcare in the US, then I can get anywhere else (and I live just a few hours from the best medical facility in the world, the Mayo Clinic in Rochester MN).

Sorry I didn't make the distinction.

I wouldn't be surprised if the USA had the best healthcare in the world, but I would still like a link if you have one.

Here are the top 1000 hospitals developing medicine for the world.

http://hospitals.webometrics.info/top1000.asp

The top 24 are in the US.

Or look at the top 7 on this list, and tell me a place in the world better. (My hospital is #2 on that list).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._News_&_World_Report

If I want treatment at any of those hospitals, it's a phone call and an appointment sometime in the next 2 to 3 days. If I need blood work, it's done that day. If I need treatment, it's that week.

My insurance is covered by my company. So I pay nothing out of pocket for it. In fact, they throw $500 a year into my HSA, and I have a $500 deductible. I have not used it for much in the 3 years I have been on this plan, so I have well over $1000 in it that if I don't use, rolls over into an IRA. All I had to do, was get an education, and work for a company that offered these kinds of benefits, just like millions of other Americans have done. 

So, I am sure a lot of Americans are complaining about there insurance, but I am not one of them.



Khuutra on 06 July 2009
Kasz216 said:
Khuutra said:
sguy78 said:

Typical liberal. Attack someone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint. Try again without attacking me. Liberals can never win in a game of logic.

Canadian healthcare is pretty sweet. Really. I love it to pieces while I'm living up there.

Interesting note.

Apparently Pittsburgh has more MRI machines then all of Canada.

Whether this is a negative on Canada or whether or not Pittsburgh loves it's MRI's I can't really say.

Just a fun fact i picked up over the weekend.

That is a very interesting statistic! It's kind of bizarre. I wonder how it compares to other major US cities.



Kasz216 on 06 July 2009
Khuutra said:
Kasz216 said:
Khuutra said:
sguy78 said:

Typical liberal. Attack someone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint. Try again without attacking me. Liberals can never win in a game of logic.

Canadian healthcare is pretty sweet. Really. I love it to pieces while I'm living up there.

Interesting note.

Apparently Pittsburgh has more MRI machines then all of Canada.

Whether this is a negative on Canada or whether or not Pittsburgh loves it's MRI's I can't really say.

Just a fun fact i picked up over the weekend.

That is a very interesting statistic! It's kind of bizarre. I wonder how it compares to other major US cities.

Yeah... if anything it would seem to suggest that Americans are OVER treated.  Or Canadians undertreated. 

I know they have a severe shortage of specialists... espiecally cranal trauma specialists.

What's ironic about canadain doctors coming here is that most American doctors would perfer a system with one process.  Not nessisairly government run healthcare.  The AMA is against that....

But if you made it so that all insurance companys were forced to use the same methods.  Like say the way medicaid is run.  They'd be willing to be paid less.

Also one reason the US ranks so low in the WHO rankings is... the percentage of money you pay towards medical bills based on your home income is actually a big detirment.  So the more socialized the system... the higher you rank.

That and the not taking health into consideration thing.



Chris Hu on 06 July 2009

The easiest way to become rich in the US is to become a MD or a lawyer unless you a completely inept at either job. But even that really can't stop you from becoming rich because their are plenty of MD and lawyers in the US that work without a proper medical license or a not bar certified and still are filthy rich.  Also if you fail at either one you can always go into politics and get rich that way.



Khuutra on 06 July 2009
Kasz216 said:
Khuutra said:

That is a very interesting statistic! It's kind of bizarre. I wonder how it compares to other major US cities.

Yeah... if anything it would seem to suggest that Americans are OVER treated.  Or Canadians undertreated. 

I know they have a severe shortage of specialists... espiecally cranal trauma specialists.

What's ironic about canadain doctors coming here is that most American doctors would perfer a system with one process.  Not nessisairly government run healthcare.  The AMA is against that....

But if you made it so that all insurance companys were forced to use the same methods.  Like say the way medicaid is run.  They'd be willing to be paid less.

Also one reason the US ranks so low in the WHO rankings is... the percentage of money you pay towards medical bills based on your home income is actually a big detirment.  So the more socialized the system... the higher you rank.

That and the not taking health into consideration thing.

Overtreated probably isn't the word - overscanned, maybe.

Still, it owuld be interesting to get some statistics on that - the number of machines in different major cities, average usage per year, so on and so forth.

Interesting story: my dentist (first time I'd seen him in about five years) asked me if dental care was socialized in Canada. Apparently he was worried about it happening here in the States! In point of fact, every single doctor I've spoken to in the last while has been very concerned about it. My sister's boyfriend's father is actually a brain surgeon who is worried about it... Some of them have tried to warn my brother away from going into medicine because they're afraid Obama is goign to turn us all into communists.