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Forums - Nintendo - SEGA: Its not game over for Mature Wii Titles

radioioRobert on 30 June 2009
RolStoppable said:
radioioRobert said:

Gamerace said: There is certainly something to consider here.

Wii games on the other hand, may take longer to reimburse your initial investment but then they keep on giving and giving for a long time. That's golden as development of games can take 1-2 years so if a developer can create a series of games that have staying power, they can have a nice monthly paycheck - inbetween game launches - that they can almost bank on instead of one big payout and then nothing for another 3-5 yrs like with HD development. Also really reduces the impact of the odd misfire.

This. Look at how these early Wii releases with initial mediocre sales did over the long run... both are very slowly nearing a million at this point, and will probably reach that goal, even if it takes another year.


Monster 4x4: World Circuit (Wii) http://www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=3828®ion=All

GT Pro Series (Wii) http://www.vgchartz.com/games/game.php?id=916®ion=All

Edit before it's mentioned: Both the above titles are shovelware, and do not deserve the legs they've had. However, both are still readily available in stores and still sell. This is probably because Nintendo has yet to do a budget line, and these look might good to unsuspecting buyers who don't do research, especially since one comes with a (poor quality) steering wheel....

They probably still sell, because the racing genre is an underserved market on the Wii. Racing on the Wii is just like FPS and TPS. A popular genre that has barely any games yet and for some strange reason hardly anyone attempts to make one. At least Codemasters is going to release a rally and Formula 1 game later this year to fill the void a little.

Sega could bring back Sega Rally, but that's highly doubtful after the HD iteration flopped and the studio that developed it was immediately closed afterwards. Outrun would be another option. Where's Namco's Ridge Racer? EA's Burnout? Third parties really fail to do the most obvious things.

Well some racing games are coming.... http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=78495&page=1



BAM! There it is!
 
Wii Code 3456 7941 4060 2924
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Dazkarieh on 30 June 2009
Procrastinato said:
arsenal009 said:
moondeep said:
Why are some people talking about HD and Wii games as if they're light-years apart? Sure, the Wii is MUCH cheaper to develop on, but the types of games available on all 3 systems are pretty much the same. It's not like we're comparing an 8-bit Combat on the Atari 2600 to the NES at its prime with Super Mario Bros 3. Those consoles were technically 1 generation apart (even though the Atari released in 1977 I think), but the games on the NES were light-years ahead of what the 2600 could ever hope to achieve. People are saying that the Wii games are graphically one generation behind the HD consoles, but the gameplay and types of games available are very similar. Except for the HD graphics, the consoles offer 'roughly' the same type of experience, but with motion control on the Wii. I don't see the big differentiator being fancy graphics.

Everyone is talking about the big difference in graphics not because it changes the experience but because it greatly changes the costs to develop a game.  A few developers have already stated that if they make the same game on Wii & HD consoles, it costs about 3 times more to develop it on the HD consoles due to the graphics.

Links.  From actual devs please, not CEOs claiming low dev costs on average, which includes shovelware.

Ohhh noezzzz... again??

OK... the most expansive game last gen costed 30M to make. Stranglehold costed 30M as well.

What do you want more? Why not think a little bit?



     

 

Procrastinato on 30 June 2009

Stranglehold cost in the "high 20s", as quoted by the producers in Game Development magazine, in their postmortem.

Stranglehold would have cost ~$7M on the Wii, then?  Why wasn't it, again?

 

I recall several shooters, from their post-mortems in Game Developer, claiming costs in the $15-20M range.  Where are all the cheap $4-5M Wii shooters?  Did The Conduit cost that much?  Seriously guys, I am thinking.  I'm asking you to, before posting hearsay.  Lets see some data, for games which are truly comparable in quality.



 

Dazkarieh on 30 June 2009
Procrastinato said:

Stranglehold cost in the "high 20s", as quoted by the producers in Game Development magazine, in their postmortem.

Stranglehold would have cost ~$7M on the Wii, then?  Why wasn't it, again?

 

I recall several shooters, from their post-mortems in Game Developer, claiming costs in the $15-20M range.  Where are all the cheap $4-5M Wii shooters?  Did The Conduit cost that much?  Seriously guys, I am thinking.  I'm asking you to, before posting hearsay.  Lets see some data, for games which are truly comparable in quality.

To clear any question... 

Midway investing $30 million in Stranglehold

Euro MD claims game will be biggest seller this Christmas

 

Stranglehold would have costed less on the Wii because engines were already built, you wouldn't need to design the acne on the guys face, so on...

For reference, Zelda:TP costed around 15M€. The most expensive game last gen was FFXII costing 30-35M (what a waste of money...).



     

 

Words Of Wisdom on 30 June 2009
Gamerace said:
There is certainly something to consider here.

The benefit with HD games is if they do well you get an immediate return on investment but for most games, they quickly nosedive off the charts after that. If the game doesn't do so well, well... your f---ed. Time to start begging someone to bankroll your next game or face bankrupcy if your a small developer and even the big boys often end up laying off staff to reduce the impact of a misfire.

Wii games on the other hand, may take longer to reimburse your initial investment but then they keep on giving and giving for a long time. That's golden as development of games can take 1-2 years so if a developer can create a series of games that have staying power, they can have a nice monthly paycheck - inbetween game launches - that they can almost bank on instead of one big payout and then nothing for another 3-5 yrs like with HD development. Also really reduces the impact of the odd misfire.

To be fair games like GTA4, CoD4&5, Halo3, Oblivion all have great staying power and the same is true for HD system but harder to achieve.

This is one of the reasons that developing for an HD system is attractive.  

You get the return on your investment immediately.  If you're a small developer with low or otherwise no cashflows then you want to recoup as much of your investment as fast as possible.  The difference between getting your money back now or later could decide whether or not you make payroll.



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moondeep on 30 June 2009

I don't think Procrastinato truly doubts that the Wii is FAR cheaper to develop for, but he just likes to see numbers to make him feel warm and fuzzy. I love numbers also. That being said, it's very hard to theorycraft how much a HD-exclusive game would've cost if done soley for the Wii and vice versa. I think we're asking a big much to extrapilate based on incongruent examples.



Hardware is only a means to enjoy great games!

dunno001 on 30 June 2009
Words Of Wisdom said:
Gamerace said:
There is certainly something to consider here.

The benefit with HD games is if they do well you get an immediate return on investment but for most games, they quickly nosedive off the charts after that. If the game doesn't do so well, well... your f---ed. Time to start begging someone to bankroll your next game or face bankrupcy if your a small developer and even the big boys often end up laying off staff to reduce the impact of a misfire.

Wii games on the other hand, may take longer to reimburse your initial investment but then they keep on giving and giving for a long time. That's golden as development of games can take 1-2 years so if a developer can create a series of games that have staying power, they can have a nice monthly paycheck - inbetween game launches - that they can almost bank on instead of one big payout and then nothing for another 3-5 yrs like with HD development. Also really reduces the impact of the odd misfire.

To be fair games like GTA4, CoD4&5, Halo3, Oblivion all have great staying power and the same is true for HD system but harder to achieve.

This is one of the reasons that developing for an HD system is attractive.  

You get the return on your investment immediately.  If you're a small developer with low or otherwise no cashflows then you want to recoup as much of your investment as fast as possible.  The difference between getting your money back now or later could decide whether or not you make payroll.

Not necessarily. You need that total cost up front before you release the game, which is higher on the HD systems. You could make a game for the HD systems at $25 million, or make the same game on Wii for about $10 million, saving about $15 million. If this $15 million can't get you through a waiting point (and actually, $10 million of that could be put toward making your NEXT game), then you failed at overhead management. Release the game while you still have $15m in the bank, then start working on game 2, and let the sales slowly come in. Compare this to spending all $25m on HD, and now you have nothing in the bank. If your game flops, it'll hurt either way, but that $25m now could be $5m, and you're still having to pay those employees...



-dunno001

-On a quest for the truly perfect game; I don't think it exists...

Procrastinato on 30 June 2009
moondeep said:
I don't think Procrastinato truly doubts that the Wii is FAR cheaper to develop for, but he just likes to see numbers to make him feel warm and fuzzy. I love numbers also. That being said, it's very hard to theorycraft how much a HD-exclusive game would've cost if done soley for the Wii and vice versa. I think we're asking a big much to extrapilate based on incongruent examples.

Well put, moondeep.  I just like hard evidence.  I'm not trying to stir up trouble.  I just don't like unsubstantiated claims, and leaps of faith based upon them.

We've heard lots of musings about this, but... there really isn't even a shred of proof.  Every comment we've ever heard from a publisher has been pretty vague, with regards to the games they're talking about.  Its going to extremes to imagine that Wii games can be both cheap and high-grade, when basically all the truly high-quality titles we've seen on the Wii thusfar have cost a decent amount of money (like SMG @ $17M).  

I want to see the $5M Wii title people hold as high in regard as games that cost $20M to make (like Uncharted, on the PS3, which supposedly cost about $19M).  Until then, lets let the known facts speak, and not make nutty assumptions -- even if they eventually turn out true-ish.



 

Dazkarieh on 30 June 2009

Well, Stranglehold is up there... so... you just have to read...



     

 

noname2200 on 30 June 2009
Procrastinato said:
moondeep said:
I don't think Procrastinato truly doubts that the Wii is FAR cheaper to develop for, but he just likes to see numbers to make him feel warm and fuzzy. I love numbers also. That being said, it's very hard to theorycraft how much a HD-exclusive game would've cost if done soley for the Wii and vice versa. I think we're asking a big much to extrapilate based on incongruent examples.

Well put, moondeep.  I just like hard evidence.  I'm not trying to stir up trouble.  I just don't like unsubstantiated claims, and leaps of faith based upon them.

We've heard lots of musings about this, but... there really isn't even a shred of proof.  Every comment we've ever heard from a publisher has been pretty vague, with regards to the games they're talking about.  Its going to extremes to imagine that Wii games can be both cheap and high-grade, when basically all the truly high-quality titles we've seen on the Wii thusfar have cost a decent amount of money (like SMG @ $17M).  

I want to see the $5M Wii title people hold as high in regard as games that cost $20M to make (like Uncharted, on the PS3, which supposedly cost about $19M).  Until then, lets let the known facts speak, and not make nutty assumptions -- even if they eventually turn out true-ish.

Out of curiousity, where'd you get $17 million from?