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Forums - Nintendo - High Voltage - we're proving that the Wii isn't underpowered

bardicverse on 21 June 2009
MaxwellGT2000 said:
bardicverse said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
"Calling you out on your bullshit" from the famed creators of Dora The Explorer: Dora Saves the Snow Princess, High Voltage Software!

Seriously for a moment, big budget studios and publishers have publicly stated how the Wii cannot do lighting/sharders/bump mapping, and then an unknown developer that always did licensed work and small budget titles comes out of no where and starts trying to make a name for themselves and calls out the big shots on their false claims.

Really? They actually said it cant do bump mapping, thus no normal mapping? I know for a fact that is BS, as its all done with texture maps. Anyone with a version of Photoshop 5 or above can make normal maps (fyi PS 5 is about 8-10 years old)

Its true, there's no hardware shaders, and this is where devs get lazy/lack talent. Making shaders over a shader system is simple, but creating full software based shader rendering is a lot of work. Basically you will need a very advanced OpenGL programmer, a rare breed of creature. It's far easier to claim the system is inferior than to go out and track one of these programmers down and pay them 70k+/yr. The key is to make sure your programming staff excels in OpenGL. There's no reason why there shouldn't be at least 2 people on your dev team that have this ability, especially if you're going to build an engine.

Yeah seems like people just hired staff as cheeply as possible that can make PC and 360 games for cheaper, which could be another reason why they say PS3 is hard to develop for since they just don't prep for that kind of work, take the example of Infinity Ward they knew the tech of the PS3 and 360 were different so they made teams that are versed in those different techs and worked their asses off to make it run nearly identical.  This is one reason I'm sad to see no infinity ward CoD game on Wii yet, if those guys put the effort they did into the 360 and PS3 tech they could blow some minds with Wii tech, not on "ZOMG it looks like a 360 game!" level but more of the "ZOMG that cannot be a Wii game" level.

I agree totally. It's really only a matter of the resources put into a projet by a dev team which make a game look good. Some people hire any modelrs for example, but the truth is, modelers are artists, which means they will have different styles. Some have a more realistic approach, some have a more cartoonish approach to modeling. The same applies with programmers, they all have their preferences, so you need to find a team of people devoted to the platform you're developing for. For example, if you have a diehard PS3 fan on your team that programs, he's not going to be happy making 360 or Wii games.  In a way, assembling a dev team is a lot like forming a band - everyone has to like the style of music the band is aiming for and the types of venues the band will play shows at.



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HappySqurriel on 21 June 2009
bardicverse said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
bardicverse said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
"Calling you out on your bullshit" from the famed creators of Dora The Explorer: Dora Saves the Snow Princess, High Voltage Software!

Seriously for a moment, big budget studios and publishers have publicly stated how the Wii cannot do lighting/sharders/bump mapping, and then an unknown developer that always did licensed work and small budget titles comes out of no where and starts trying to make a name for themselves and calls out the big shots on their false claims.

Really? They actually said it cant do bump mapping, thus no normal mapping? I know for a fact that is BS, as its all done with texture maps. Anyone with a version of Photoshop 5 or above can make normal maps (fyi PS 5 is about 8-10 years old)

Its true, there's no hardware shaders, and this is where devs get lazy/lack talent. Making shaders over a shader system is simple, but creating full software based shader rendering is a lot of work. Basically you will need a very advanced OpenGL programmer, a rare breed of creature. It's far easier to claim the system is inferior than to go out and track one of these programmers down and pay them 70k+/yr. The key is to make sure your programming staff excels in OpenGL. There's no reason why there shouldn't be at least 2 people on your dev team that have this ability, especially if you're going to build an engine.

Yeah seems like people just hired staff as cheeply as possible that can make PC and 360 games for cheaper, which could be another reason why they say PS3 is hard to develop for since they just don't prep for that kind of work, take the example of Infinity Ward they knew the tech of the PS3 and 360 were different so they made teams that are versed in those different techs and worked their asses off to make it run nearly identical. This is one reason I'm sad to see no infinity ward CoD game on Wii yet, if those guys put the effort they did into the 360 and PS3 tech they could blow some minds with Wii tech, not on "ZOMG it looks like a 360 game!" level but more of the "ZOMG that cannot be a Wii game" level.

I agree totally. It's really only a matter of the resources put into a projet by a dev team which make a game look good. Some people hire any modelrs for example, but the truth is, modelers are artists, which means they will have different styles. Some have a more realistic approach, some have a more cartoonish approach to modeling. The same applies with programmers, they all have their preferences, so you need to find a team of people devoted to the platform you're developing for. For example, if you have a diehard PS3 fan on your team that programs, he's not going to be happy making 360 or Wii games. In a way, assembling a dev team is a lot like forming a band - everyone has to like the style of music the band is aiming for and the types of venues the band will play shows at.

That's a very naive way to look at how people within the industry really look and think about things ...

When it comes to the modelers and texture artists the large the project they're working on the more they're a cog in a machine, expected to produce models and textures that represent the designs of the conceptual artists; who also have very limited control, and are completely under the control of the artistic director.

Most of the Programmers who should be working on a particular platform tend to be involved in tools and middleware development rather than the game scripting and engine modifications that happen on a game.



TWRoO on 21 June 2009

My Wii is displaying at 576i by the way... just thought i'd throw that in here.

Also I have to use 50Hz, because for some reason 60Hz cuts the picture off at either side slightly.... or was that 480i, I can't remember..... one of either 480i mode, or 60Hz mode cuts the picture off for sure.



Vashyo on 22 June 2009
bardicverse said:
Vashyo said:
I doubt either game will sell over 1m in lifetime, both games would be easily better received on 360 or ps3, but people who have wii aren't your average gamers. Just look at madworld it's been out 13 weeks allready and it has sold barely over 200,000 copies even though it looks like a fun game and got good reviews. 3rd party games just don't sell as well as first parties like mario, zelda, wii-fit, etc

There's a big difference - Madworld had a weird art style, was rated M, and was very short and repetitive. In the end, it just wasn't a good game. Think of Alone in the Dark that came out last year, very similar reception. Has little to do with the audience, just a crappy product.

Conduit will likely sell 1.5 mil, and as for Grinder, its hard to say - depends on how its advertised/hype buildup

Well "No more Heroes" which I consider to be the best game on the console has only sold around 400,000 copies according to vgchartz stats. Violent games just won't sell that well on wii, saleswise wii's own franchises sell the best (mario,zelda,metroid, etc) and everything else does average or poorly.



HappySqurriel on 22 June 2009
Vashyo said:
bardicverse said:
Vashyo said:
I doubt either game will sell over 1m in lifetime, both games would be easily better received on 360 or ps3, but people who have wii aren't your average gamers. Just look at madworld it's been out 13 weeks allready and it has sold barely over 200,000 copies even though it looks like a fun game and got good reviews. 3rd party games just don't sell as well as first parties like mario, zelda, wii-fit, etc

There's a big difference - Madworld had a weird art style, was rated M, and was very short and repetitive. In the end, it just wasn't a good game. Think of Alone in the Dark that came out last year, very similar reception. Has little to do with the audience, just a crappy product.

Conduit will likely sell 1.5 mil, and as for Grinder, its hard to say - depends on how its advertised/hype buildup

Well "No more Heroes" which I consider to be the best game on the console has only sold around 400,000 copies according to vgchartz stats. Violent games just won't sell that well on wii, saleswise wii's own franchises sell the best (mario,zelda,metroid, etc) and everything else does average or poorly.

What about Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition, Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles, House of the Dead 2&3, Call of Duty 3, Call of Duty World at War, and Red Steel?

Could it be possible that new IPs with highly distinctive art styles and juvenile themes might just be a niche product? I have played (and enjoyed) both games, but they're both very similar (in a lot of ways) to Killer7 which didn't perform well on the PS2 and NO ONE questioned whether a "Mature" game could sell on the PS2; even games like Bully and Manhunt 2 performed well against their PS2 counterparts given that Bully was a two year old port and still got 2/3 the sales of the PS2 version, and Manhunt 2 sold exactly like the PS2 version did (which was similar to how the original title sold on the PS2 if I'm not mistaken).



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bardicverse on 22 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:

That's a very naive way to look at how people within the industry really look and think about things ...

When it comes to the modelers and texture artists the large the project they're working on the more they're a cog in a machine, expected to produce models and textures that represent the designs of the conceptual artists; who also have very limited control, and are completely under the control of the artistic director.

Most of the Programmers who should be working on a particular platform tend to be involved in tools and middleware development rather than the game scripting and engine modifications that happen on a game.

Im not sure where you ger your info from, but the majority of middleware is purchased, as there's a ton of it. Most of the programmers directly take care of the scripting and engine modifications, as I've witnessed in several dev teams in the past and as my dev team currently does.

I've filtered through dozens of modelers and texture artists, given the same art test to check their skill. Some just had a very difficult time breaking from their own style to match the style intended. It happens a lot. A large filtering process needs to occur to find the right staff for your dev team and game's art style. It happens a lot more often than you might think.

Have you been to GDC and had conversations with other devs, asking them about console platforms, etc? There's quite a bunch that carry a heavy bias toward one platform or another. We already have an active example - take the one dev who stated that the Wii is "a piece of sh*t. it's 2 gamecubes duct taped together" This was said at GDC, in a conference filled with other industry professionals. There's quite a bit of bias existing in the industry cats, its reality, not being naieve.

 

@Vashyo - I gues thats preference, I tried NMH, and really didn't like it. Not for the violence, but for the lack of depth.



HappySqurriel on 22 June 2009
bardicverse said:
HappySqurriel said:

That's a very naive way to look at how people within the industry really look and think about things ...

When it comes to the modelers and texture artists the large the project they're working on the more they're a cog in a machine, expected to produce models and textures that represent the designs of the conceptual artists; who also have very limited control, and are completely under the control of the artistic director.

Most of the Programmers who should be working on a particular platform tend to be involved in tools and middleware development rather than the game scripting and engine modifications that happen on a game.

Im not sure where you ger your info from, but the majority of middleware is purchased, as there's a ton of it. Most of the programmers directly take care of the scripting and engine modifications, as I've witnessed in several dev teams in the past and as my dev team currently does.

I've filtered through dozens of modelers and texture artists, given the same art test to check their skill. Some just had a very difficult time breaking from their own style to match the style intended. It happens a lot. A large filtering process needs to occur to find the right staff for your dev team and game's art style. It happens a lot more often than you might think.

Have you been to GDC and had conversations with other devs, asking them about console platforms, etc? There's quite a bunch that carry a heavy bias toward one platform or another. We already have an active example - take the one dev who stated that the Wii is "a piece of sh*t. it's 2 gamecubes duct taped together" This was said at GDC, in a conference filled with other industry professionals. There's quite a bit of bias existing in the industry cats, its reality, not being naieve.

 

@Vashyo - I gues thats preference, I tried NMH, and really didn't like it. Not for the violence, but for the lack of depth.

I think we were looking at different things ... I assumed you were talking about skillsets, and you were talking about personal preferences.



bardicverse on 22 June 2009
HappySqurriel said:

I think we were looking at different things ... I assumed you were talking about skillsets, and you were talking about personal preferences.

Gotcha, yeah I was talking about biases from people that create a bigger problem if assigned to a project they will not have their heart in.



LordTheNightKnight on 22 June 2009
Snesboy said:
End of first page and I am worn out from everyone's bitching.

It's just a fucking Wii game. Who cares how it looks or how generic it is? As long as it's fun.

Logic and reason versus the chance to argue?

This is the web, so take your pick on what wins.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs