SHMUPGurus said: Now Helios, I don't really see the progress you're talking about. Because it is a handheld version of a Zelda game, I don't really see how they can improve on the narrative when everything is made simple. Your point about the main cast being involved in Link's quest is weak, have you ever played The Wind Waker? Simple characters at the beginning of the game become important ones, such as Medli and Makar. You needed to use those characters in order to complete certain temples in TWW (and they made the story advance by becoming Sages of those temples, praying to restore the power to ban evil from the Master Sword). It was both unique and sad at the same time, because they would have to dedicate their lives to Link's cause from that point on. In Phantom Hourglass, you do use that little Goron to finish a temple, but the interaction wasn't as important as in previous Zelda games. In PH, it's just rehash of ideas put in a simpler way. Using a stylus to do everything isn't much of a progress if you want my opinion. It's a different way to play, but it would have work as good, if not better, with traditional controls and we would have been able to see the result of Link's quest the same way. I'm not saying Phantom Hourglass is bad game, but it didn't revolutionize anything in the franchise. For what it was, it was amusing that's for sure! ;)

First, let me tell you: You are correct - Interface is where PH truly "shines" (whether you like it or not is another matter - I was rather indifferent to be honest) However, you cannot deny that the new controls gave birth to some fresh and clever ideas. The way you control the boomerang, the hammer, and the Goron ally are just a few examples of things that would have been impossible with a "normal" interface. I also thought the puzzles were quite good and made use of the game's strengths, although the LoZ-style dungeon designs failed to impress me.

Now as for story... You are right about that too, but your examples are different from the things I am talking about. Even if other games started the process (and really, it started with ALttP) PH can still better those games. In that regard, I feel it is rather strange of you to pass judgment on my arguments before you even know them.

So, what am I talking about? Well, what about Link's quest? What is this game about? To save Tetra, of course. It's a simple premise, but it's never been as clear, or told well. The game never lets you forget about it. It's the first time Link and Zelda have any real relationship to talk about, and the game makes the most of this, which makes me feel this part of the story was better told in PH than any other Zelda game.

Of course, the plot involves more people than just Link and Tetra. Oshu, for one, is, for the first time, not just some spirit you go to once and never see again until the ending (a la the Light Spirits, or just about any supernatural creature in the series) I know this is a special case, with him having lost his powers, but feel that this is worth mentioning.

More importantly, there is Linebeck, whom, besides being a surprisingly well developed and interesting character, is actually involved with other characters, like (the otherwise bland) Celia, as well as Link himself. Together, they make quite a cohesive cast. Funny thing is that we've never seen that in a Zelda game before (when did multiple characters interact in any meaningful way in TP?). Of course there is also that crazy woman that haunts Linebeck throughout the game - they way this resolves - juxtaposing Link and Linebeck and their outlook on life - is another brilliant example of PH's unique narration.

As for story-gameplay interaction, just consider the quest for the Phantom Sword, and the way this changes how you tackle the Temple of the Ocean King. That is good design, unlike anything seen in TP or TWW. The Temple itself is very interesting, as are the Spirits - how often do the "quest items" you collect (Spiritual Stones, Fused Shadows) actually affect gameplay (with the proper uppgrades)? I think PH does the best job of combining story and gameplay elements since MM.

I could go on, but these are things that impressed me as a game designer. I just though PH was the first to get things right where previous games have struggled.

 

nordlead said: I take it everyone hated it because of the single dungeon. That is the only complaint I've ever heard about the game.

You can't seriously tell me that Phantom Hourglass was on par with games like A Link To The Past, Link's Awakening, The Minish Cap or The Wind Waker, can you? And I'm really not saying this because of this one dungeon, believe me. Of course, this wasn't the best idea in game design, but we have seen worse things in Zelda games. It isn't because of the controls either. I had absolutely no problem with them and thought they worked fine. I don't really see an improvement either, but since it didn't hurt me and was probably a plus for some, it is a good thing overall. But the game was just not as good as any of the other Zelda games. The dungeons were fine, but they were at the lower end of the scale I'd say. Still, they were classic Zelda gameplay that made good usage of the DS controls, so I can't really complain about those. What made the game sub-par were the things that happened outside the dungeons. It is quite difficult to describe for me, since simply calling it "the overworld" or "the story" would be wrong. It is more something like "the way the action progresses". Others have said it already, the game doesn't feel as epic as it should. This comes a bit from the characters, and it comes from the story. Both felt a bit too simple for a Zelda game. And as I said, the events between the dungeons were the huge letdown. It was hardly much more than going from A to B, the islands looked all generic, there was no fun in accessing the dungeons and absolutely no "epic feel". I think that is the best way I can currently write this down. I hope you get my points.

nintendo_fanboy said: nordlead said: I take it everyone hated it because of the single dungeon. That is the only complaint I've ever heard about the game. You can't seriously tell me that Phantom Hourglass was on par with games like A Link To The Past, Link's Awakening, The Minish Cap or The Wind Waker, can you? And I'm really not saying this because of this one dungeon, believe me. Of course, this wasn't the best idea in game design, but we have seen worse things in Zelda games. It isn't because of the controls either. I had absolutely no problem with them and thought they worked fine. I don't really see an improvement either, but since it didn't hurt me and was probably a plus for some, it is a good thing overall. But the game was just not as good as any of the other Zelda games. The dungeons were fine, but they were at the lower end of the scale I'd say. Still, they were classic Zelda gameplay that made good usage of the DS controls, so I can't really complain about those. What made the game sub-par were the things that happened outside the dungeons. It is quite difficult to describe for me, since simply calling it "the overworld" or "the story" would be wrong. It is more something like "the way the action progresses". Others have said it already, the game doesn't feel as epic as it should. This comes a bit from the characters, and it comes from the story. Both felt a bit too simple for a Zelda game. And as I said, the events between the dungeons were the huge letdown. It was hardly much more than going from A to B, the islands looked all generic, there was no fun in accessing the dungeons and absolutely no "epic feel". I think that is the best way I can currently write this down. I hope you get my points.

Wind Waker was ok, and honestly I liked Phantom Hourglass so much more. Both suffered from the same overworld lots of traveling problem. I think Phantom Hourglass handeled it slightly better. I do happen to like A Link to The Past better, but never got into Link's Awakening (beat it, but didn't go crazy over it)

What really made Phantom Hourglass stand apart was the fresh gameplay. I've beat Zelda with the same classic puzzles over and over again (i've easily beat all the zeldas I've played more than 100 times in total). Phantom Hourglass is one of the few Zelda games where I just absolutely fell in love with it because the puzzles and gameplay were so new. They took advantage of every aspect of the system too (microphone, case, ability to draw on the map, and so on). Sure the game wasn't as epic, but all the other games were just a reskin of the previous games and all used similar tricks. I'm not complaining about the other games and I loved them, but PH did truely new stuff.

If I owned a DS I would be!

Well I give you your points, you are right that the interface of the DS was well used and made up for good new gameplay elements. I don't think that this should impact my points however, since the game could still feel epic with these new gameplay elements if only the things inbetween the dungeons would've been done right.

And if they didn't want to make those things like they were in previous Zelda games, I would have prefered them to start a new IP with Phantom Hourglass. I don't think this was intentional though.

Of course I am excited. It's Zelda and I'm a fan. I also really enjoyed PH.

@ Helios:

Ah, I see what you mean about the interface. I like all these new ways to play myself, example Twilight Princess on the Wii was really fun because of the new aim mechanics with the Wiimote. What's fun about all this new interface is that items we've never seen before can be introduced in the series, like the whip in Spirit Tracks. I have no doubt that there will be other new ingenious items in this game, and I simply hope that Nintendo will try to create new gameplay elements with Wii MotionPlus for the new console Zelda as well. I also agree that you at least reuse your items more than once in this game than in any other Zelda, but you also have to consider that there were not many items to choose from in this little adventure in the first place. The most important ones you'll mostly use are, once again, the usual ones we've always seen in other Zelda games: boomerang, bow & arrows, bombs and the hook that resembles the hookshot more than anything. The Hammer, which you get late in the game, only comes into play in one dungeon, and then you use it for other treasures or complete the Temple of the Ocean King faster (it's such a cheap weapon too, haha!). If I remember correctly, you don't even need it in order to complete the game. One last thing I want to say about the gameplay is about the puzzles in the game. I thought it was a bit too obvious in temples that the bosses' weaknesses were the items you just obtained in them. That made it way too predictable and easy, and even the temples became pretty linear after you obtained the respective items in them. I can clearly say all the temples in this game were the easiest ones in the Zelda series mostly because of that.

Oh, and let me tell you that I haven't found a story as amusing as this one in any other Zelda game. I guess the fact that it is a handheld Zelda makes it more possible and believable, but I have to be honest and tell you that this is what's bugging me a bit. This game is short, and the story is made simple to appeal to a certain audience. With that said, I believe how they handled some story elements were a bit too "shoved in your face" in some parts. The best example I have here is Oshu suddenly appearing on the Ghost Ship after you find Tetra, explaining what makes you the hero in the story and how he involved you into all of this. They didn't explain how Oshu got on the ship in the first place! I feel like there would have been better ways to introduce this scene, like maybe add a segment where you need to drag Tetra to Linebeck's ship first (imagine all the good lines that could have come out of this scene), etc..

And Linebeck... hmmm, what I can I say about him? To be honest, he's the one making the story possible just like The King of Red Lions and Midna did in previous games. If you look at it from a certain perspective, he's allowing you to travel on his ship so you can fulfill your destiny and help both Tetra and the Ocean King. Like the other important characters like him in other games in the franchise, he's basically just there to make the game possible. So, in other words, while you may think he makes Link's band more interesting, he's not that different from Midna and other key characters as he serves the purpose of the key element to the story. There's nothing new we haven't seen here, and it's quite obvious that his character development is important. And about character interaction, there have been many in the past Zelda games too. An excellent example I have is in Majora's Mask: the whole Anju+Kafei sidequest. Once again, Phantom Hourglass might have handled these little character interactions with Linebeck the best... but that's it. In other words, it's lucky Linebeck is in the game because there wouldn't be much of a story without him.

So, like I said, PH didn't really introduce anything new to the franchise, at least as far as story goes. I'd even say it falls short on explaining a few things, but at least they kept the Zelda feel in the game, and that's exactly what I was looking for! =P

I'm excited for it! I loved PH and I hope Spirit Tracks is even better.

SHMUPGurus said: @ Helios: Ah, I see what you mean about the interface. I like all these new ways to play myself, example Twilight Princess on the Wii was really fun because of the new aim mechanics with the Wiimote. What's fun about all this new interface is that items we've never seen before can be introduced in the series, like the whip in Spirit Tracks. I have no doubt that there will be other new ingenious items in this game, and I simply hope that Nintendo will try to create new gameplay elements with Wii MotionPlus for the new console Zelda as well. I also agree that you at least reuse your items more than once in this game than in any other Zelda, but you also have to consider that there were not many items to choose from in this little adventure in the first place. The most important ones you'll mostly use are, once again, the usual ones we've always seen in other Zelda games: boomerang, bow & arrows, bombs and the hook that resembles the hookshot more than anything. The Hammer, which you get late in the game, only comes into play in one dungeon, and then you use it for other treasures or complete the Temple of the Ocean King faster (it's such a cheap weapon too, haha!). If I remember correctly, you don't even need it in order to complete the game. One last thing I want to say about the gameplay is about the puzzles in the game. I thought it was a bit too obvious in temples that the bosses' weaknesses were the items you just obtained in them. That made it way too predictable and easy, and even the temples became pretty linear after you obtained the respective items in them. I can clearly say all the temples in this game were the easiest ones in the Zelda series mostly because of that. Oh, and let me tell you that I haven't found a story as amusing as this one in any other Zelda game. I guess the fact that it is a handheld Zelda makes it more possible and believable, but I have to be honest and tell you that this is what's bugging me a bit. This game is short, and the story is made simple to appeal to a certain audience. With that said, I believe how they handled some story elements were a bit too "shoved in your face" in some parts. The best example I have here is Oshu suddenly appearing on the Ghost Ship after you find Tetra, explaining what makes you the hero in the story and how he involved you into all of this. They didn't explain how Oshu got on the ship in the first place! I feel like there would have been better ways to introduce this scene, like maybe add a segment where you need to drag Tetra to Linebeck's ship first (imagine all the good lines that could have come out of this scene), etc.. And Linebeck... hmmm, what I can I say about him? To be honest, he's the one making the story possible just like The King of Red Lions and Midna did in previous games. If you look at it from a certain perspective, he's allowing you to travel on his ship so you can fulfill your destiny and help both Tetra and the Ocean King. Like the other important characters like him in other games in the franchise, he's basically just there to make the game possible. So, in other words, while you may think he makes Link's band more interesting, he's not that different from Midna and other key characters as he serves the purpose of the key element to the story. There's nothing new we haven't seen here, and it's quite obvious that his character development is important. And about character interaction, there have been many in the past Zelda games too. An excellent example I have is in Majora's Mask: the whole Anju+Kafei sidequest. Once again, Phantom Hourglass might have handled these little character interactions with Linebeck the best... but that's it. In other words, it's lucky Linebeck is in the game because there wouldn't be much of a story without him. So, like I said, PH didn't really introduce anything new to the franchise, at least as far as story goes. I'd even say it falls short on explaining a few things, but at least they kept the Zelda feel in the game, and that's exactly what I was looking for! =P *EDIT: About that last point of yours, the quest items you get in the Minish Cap allow you to use a better version of the Picori Blade, which enables you to summon many versions of yourself to solve puzzles when you step on some lighted floortiles. Your attack power is also greater for sure. Same in the Wind Waker, the Earth and Wind Temples would allow you to obtain the definitive version of the Master Sword in order to defeat Ganondorf. So, it seems like the many Zelda development teams thought about ways to implement a balanced story-gameplay interaction way before Phantom Hourglass, and it was especially well made in the Minish Cap. Thinking about it... The Minish Cap was truly an amazing handheld Zelda game!

Heh, I must say, this is an interesting discussion. Still, I'll be brief so we don't get caught up in needless polemics.

I believe you are correct about the temples (they are linear and visually/architecturally unimpressive). You do need the hammer to beat the stone boss, but otherwise I don't have a lot to say about that.

Regarding Oshu on the Ghost Ship, I see your point, but I think that was done intentionally, just to throw the player off. Maybe it could have been handled better, but I thought it was kind of funny how he just appeared there (we already knew he had mystic powers) and went "Oh, and by the way, I'm the Ocean King." They needed a reason for Linebeck to continue the adventure after discovering there was no treasure (think of the dialogue we did get!) I also think they wanted to have that little story on the ship, to tie it thematically with the other times it is used for exposition.

Linebeck himself... You are correct - the difference between him and the KoRL/Midna is that he actually went up and talked with people, rather than waited until they left to talk with Link.

Quest items, I don't think we see eye to eye here. TMC is my favorite 2D Zelda, but the way the Four Sword is used is not very impressive. The reason the sword transforms in the first place is not very well explained, and there is nothing about it that changes the way you play the game, beyond the gimmick itself. TWW was even worse - there was absolutely no difference between the underpowered and powered-up Master Sword, other than the plot device it presented (and the admittedly cool visual effect). Instead we had the OHKO Light Arrows, which were just cheap and came way too late to be of much use anyway.

In PH you spend the entire game running from the Phantoms, and then you can actually kill them? That's awesome! You simply don't get that in any other Zelda.

 

I am very excited. Its a new zelda, its on DS (my fave system) it has trains (which i love). i am really stoked about it.