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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 360 maxed out, PlayStation3 isn't.

Million on 06 June 2009
Bitmap Frogs said:
Million said:
Slimebeast said:
Million, can't you just declare defeat and give credit where credit is due?

Forza 3 slays the competition.

1 million polygons per car. Wow.

I'm debating with a brick wall , for that reason alone it's logicaly impossible for me to win.

 

You aren't really interested on debating, as in a honest exchange of ideas that ends up in agreement and a more thorough understanding of each viewpoint.

You are just trying to score points for your side of the fence.

I am interested in debating but their responses the my side of the argument is either (A) your a fanboy (B) referring to the press release (C) admit it you've failed . If i'm beat with logical then it'll be evident.

I always try to put as much logical in my arguments as possible , if either Selnor or Zenfolder defeated my logic which they clearly haven't then I will concede defeat .All they do is hide behind the fact that turn 10 said Forza has 10X the polygons , i've offered logical proof that it is highly unlikely that this is really the case . They refuse to acknowledge my points or respond to them directly so the debate has no way of progresing.




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Bitmap Frogs on 06 June 2009
Gearbox said:
i think alan wake doesnt look like heavy rain...

and i think crytek will be best on a pc..

but iunno, i think he said that cause of how vaslty the grahics of sony games have gone up when microsoft cant even get one game to look that good throughout( i like halo 3 first level looked just as good but level 2 was worse. 3 even worse etc etc. the last level was pathetic...)

 

I don't know much about heavy rain, so I am asking you this: is everything on heavy rain pre-baked?

Because alan wake does weather and full day-night cycle on everything on the fly, they don't just model a scene "day, clouds" or "day, rainy" and use pre-baked lightning, skyboxes, etc. There's a compromise when the engine can do all that stuff on the go.





Current-gen game collection uploaded on the profile, full of win and good games; also most of my PC games. Lucasfilm Games/LucasArts 1982-2008 (Requiescat In Pace).

Slimebeast on 06 June 2009

Heavy Rain doesn't count, because it's not exactly hard to make QTE's look good compared to real time graphics.



Akvod on 06 June 2009
Slimebeast said:
Heavy Rain doesn't count, because it's not exactly hard to make QTE's look good compared to real time graphics.

???



Slimebeast on 06 June 2009
Akvod said:
Slimebeast said:
Heavy Rain doesn't count, because it's not exactly hard to make QTE's look good compared to real time graphics.

???


I mean you can't compare Heavy Rain - a QTE game - to a normal game like Alan Wake, and take it as an example of how PS3 is graphically better, while the X360 is 'maxed out'.

QTE's - Quick Time Events - are pre-rendered cut scenes, so they're easy to make good looking compared to real time rendered gameplay graphics (just look at games like God of War and Star Wars Unleashed: the QTE's look better than the regular gameplay). The X360 could easily produce as good looking QTE's like those in Heavy Rain.



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Million on 06 June 2009
Adjudicator said:
Maybe the 10x polygons is total for both inside and outside the car. I think I heard they didn't have a cockpit view before. If that's the case then it doesn't render all 1,000,000 at any given time on screen.
Tech folk can correct me if that is at all a possibility

I'd be having trouble believing a  Forza 3 car had anything more than 300,000 polygons per car ( infact you'd have to give proven technical information to make me believe they were anything over GT5:P's standard of 200,000 per car). I'm not a game developer but it's clear that even doubling polygon count is a difficult task , Turn 10 can't possibly be claiming they've increased the polygon count per car 5X (that's similar to a leap in hardware)

To put it into perspective Polyphone Digital spend a months worth in man hours to produce 1 car in GT5 , 1 month . I seriously doubt that Polyphone Digital with a much longer history in developing car racing games than Turn 10 is less capable of modeling cars efficiently. The above information leads me to belive to things.

 

(1) like you said Turn 10 might be spinning the figures to include the inside of the car , maybe the enviroment also.

(2) Turn 10 are straight up lying.

(3) Information has been mis-translated.




selnor on 06 June 2009
Million said:
selnor said:
Million said:
Squilliam said:
Million said:
selnor said:
MikeB said:

@ selnor

Case study. 360 has produced the best graphics on this gen systems so far. It's called Forza 3. Explain that away. You said about a year ago, that the 360 was not capable of GT5P, now it rips it apart. :)


What I have actually stated is that any kind of PS3 game can be decently done on the 360 and vice versa (albeit with regard to specific games with sacrifices on the 360, a simple and obvious example would be 7.1 audio downgraded to 5.1) potentially. So you will have to quote me on the comment directly instead of making allegations.

And I have said the XBox 360 is a powerful capable console (ever since the launch of the console), albeit the PS3 is well more powerful (this is why I often battle with people who claim the exact opposite). IMO we already see this properly in exclusives games today. Back in 2005 I stated it would take a while for the console to show off its true colors technically (due to new different technology and obsolete game engine technology, like was the case for the classic Amiga, much more so than was for example the case for the Atari ST).

And lastly, I think Gran Turismo 5 will be technically far more advanced. The Prologue from 2 years ago already renders in a well higher resolution and allows for more cars onscreen. That's not to say Forza 3 won't be impressive and ambitious, it's telling the game will be supplied on 2 Dual layer DVDs for the 360, usually that's not desireable for a racing game, but will allow for a technically more impressive game in terms of assets.

I think Forza 3 can only be directly compared to the Gran Turismo series on the PS3, other game engines like Killzone 2 or Uncharted 2 are too different for direct comparisons.


Well it's been confirmed now that Forza 3 will have 16 cars on track on release. KZ2 rendered in native 720p at 30fps and provides for me even after E3 the best graphics on PS3. Forza 3 runs at 60 fps and 720p native with 16 cars on the track. The most important thing though is the polygons per car are 1 million ( quite a bit higher than Prologues and the trackside detail is on a completely different level. GT5 will have to up it's grpahics alot over Prologue just to break even with Forza 3. Looking at other games as well at E3 Alan Wake, Mass Effect 2 and Multiplat games like Lost Planet 2 all battle it out with ease against PS3's best. It goes to show there is basically nothing in it for 1 to be more powerful over the other as I said all along. Alan Wake's lighting for instance is just pure win, and we saw a glimpse of a tornado in Alan Wake where the physics were 2nd to none.

Just like the PS3 upped the anti from MGS4 to KZ2, the 360 has also destroyed Gears 2 graphics and showed more than 4 titles all beating it with ease. Personally this year PS3 wont have the best graphics of 2009. It will be Forza 3.

if you take alway all the unfounded "facts" , take away all the fanboy opinion and what do you have . A steaming pile of...

 

FORZA 3 DOES NOT HAVE 1 MILLION PIXELS PE ,  Zenfolder said it was 800,000 pixels per car . What are you fanboys just adding 200k everytime to make your arguments sweeter ?

They didn't say it had 1,000,000 pixels. Polygon is the word!

Heh yeah I meant to say polygons , Selnor your ignorance is crippling me seriously. They could have used "10X" as a place holder , they could have just been trying convey the idea of a much improved Forza 3 , it is not official confirmation and why wouldn't they say 1,000,000 as opposed to "10X" we all know which sounds better. i mean unless they write "10X" on the box of Forza 3 or in the Forza 3 ads then there is no legal obligation on their part to tell the truth , it's public relations people lie and you can't verify the polygon can't.

If there was 10X the polygon count in a Forza 3 car then it would clearly trump GT5 cars but that isn't the case , GT5:P cars are still argued to look superior. Your arguing over a game released 2 years ago , so despite the fact that neither of us can verify Forza 3's polgyon count , we can compare it to a car made of 200,000 polygons , we see no clear visual advantage , that would lead anyone with reasonable thinking abilities to conclude they were talking outa their asses.

No. To be honest your ignorance is to bloody stupid. Your doing my head in now. Your fanboy BS knows no ends.

"The look and feel of a modern racing game: Forza is the definitive racing game. “Forza Motorsport’s” appreciation of the automobile is due in large part to the team’s attention to detail. This is why automotive engineers from manufacturers like Audi and champion race teams like Peugeot as well as experienced computer graphics specialists from across Microsoft have all teamed up with Turn 10 to make “Forza Motorsport 3” the most beautiful and realistic racing game ever made. All 400-plus cars in the game have been built with more than 10 times the amount of polygons as “Forza Motorsport 2.” This includes painstakingly researched cockpits and interiors for every vehicle. But realism isn’t just about pretty graphics. Turn 10 takes realism to new heights, leading the industry with the most advanced physics model, artificial intelligence and damage calculations. Whether it’s the differences in how each car handles through the corners, how the engines sound at top speed or how different tires and upgrades impact your car’s performance, you’ll find yourself leaning into your turns as if you were really behind the wheel of your favorite ride."

From the official Forza Motorsport website. You should really grow up. You make yourself look silly. Just because GT5's cars have alot less Poly's you cant believe it and have to ignore hard facts. Fanboys will do anything.

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/fm3_factsheet.htm

Ok let's break this down simply.

(1) a Forza 2 car consists of 100,000 polygons.

(2) a GT5:P car consists of 200,000 polygons.

(3) A Forza 3 car is alleged to have 5X the polygon count of a GT5:P car and 10X the polygon count of a Forza 2 car = 1,000,000 polygons.

(4) It is quite clear that Forza 3 has no clear or signifcant graphical advantage over GT5:P

(5) The revalation of (4) put's into to doubt the informartion put forward , a 5X polygon count should at least result in significant visual difference (800,000) polygons worth of differrence.

(6) Regardless of what is stated in that press release , we are rational beings able to distinguish false for truth , by means of comparison we can safely determine that Forza 3 has nowhere near a 1,000,000 polygon count.

 

The sad thing is that we'd be having the same argument regardless of what turn 10 said , if it was 15X the polygon count then selnor would be blindly arguing that Forza 3 cars had 1,500,000 polygons.

Point 4 is where the problem is. People who have paid £400 for their PS3 dont want to believe that a £129 console is capable of better. Even when it's as clear as night and day that Forza 3 is better than GT5P ( Notice I haven't said GT5, as we need actual cockpit gameplay to judge ).

Problem is at E3 09 M$ really have shown the 360 to be more than capable of matching PS3 power punch for punch. And many PS3 owners who bought into the power thing are on the edge of their tether. I dont doubt that GT5 will be much closer, whether it's slightly better or slightly worse. The point is M$ have made the power thing a moot subject now. Alan Wake was another beautiful game as was Mass Effect 2. But Forza 3 has surprised everyone, not least because instead of an improvement over Forza 2 graphics we got an overhaul. It's almost like Turn 10 took all the comments about Forza 2's graphics to heart and said right we'll show everyone. Pitting side by side cockpit view videos really shows how much more detail is in Forza 3's cars and scenery's.



Akvod on 06 June 2009
Slimebeast said:
Akvod said:
Slimebeast said:
Heavy Rain doesn't count, because it's not exactly hard to make QTE's look good compared to real time graphics.

???


I mean you can't compare Heavy Rain - a QTE game - to a normal game like Alan Wake, and take it as an example of how PS3 is graphically better, while the X360 is 'maxed out'.

QTE's - Quick Time Events - are pre-rendered cut scenes, so they're easy to make good looking compared to real time rendered gameplay graphics (just look at games like God of War and Star Wars Unleashed: the QTE's look better than the regular gameplay). The X360 could easily produce as good looking QTE's like those in Heavy Rain.

I'm not knowledgeable about these technical things, but I don't see how the graphics are pre-rendered in QTE's... Don't they use the same character models? Having played GOW I and II, along with seeing RE4, the graphics look the same. If you're talking about animation, that's different, but I don't see any loading going on, and the replacement of character models and skins when it's a QTE...

Heavy Rain also looks just the same in real time gameplay, as well as when it's in QTE...

 

 

 

 



AFFLICTION on 06 June 2009
BMaker11 said:
I'm reposting this because it got overlooked on the first page......and it's exactly what the thread has turned into:

I guess you haven't been here very long. If you were, you'd know that everyone on VGC are experts on the consoles and know when a system is maxed out (without even developing for the system), and that developers don't know shit (who have been developing for the consoles for years). Add in a little bit of "When was the last time they made a good game?" and then NO developer has any credibility, because the quality of a game is subjective. Add a dash of "I think" and "there's no way they're right", then VGC members actually become the developers themselves! Which is even funnier because these members believe that developers don't know shit. The result: The same posting members DON'T KNOW SHIT!!

So of course they don't agree

this



Million on 06 June 2009
selnor said:
Million said:
selnor said:
Million said:
Squilliam said:
Million said:
selnor said:
MikeB said:

@ selnor

Case study. 360 has produced the best graphics on this gen systems so far. It's called Forza 3. Explain that away. You said about a year ago, that the 360 was not capable of GT5P, now it rips it apart. :)


What I have actually stated is that any kind of PS3 game can be decently done on the 360 and vice versa (albeit with regard to specific games with sacrifices on the 360, a simple and obvious example would be 7.1 audio downgraded to 5.1) potentially. So you will have to quote me on the comment directly instead of making allegations.

And I have said the XBox 360 is a powerful capable console (ever since the launch of the console), albeit the PS3 is well more powerful (this is why I often battle with people who claim the exact opposite). IMO we already see this properly in exclusives games today. Back in 2005 I stated it would take a while for the console to show off its true colors technically (due to new different technology and obsolete game engine technology, like was the case for the classic Amiga, much more so than was for example the case for the Atari ST).

And lastly, I think Gran Turismo 5 will be technically far more advanced. The Prologue from 2 years ago already renders in a well higher resolution and allows for more cars onscreen. That's not to say Forza 3 won't be impressive and ambitious, it's telling the game will be supplied on 2 Dual layer DVDs for the 360, usually that's not desireable for a racing game, but will allow for a technically more impressive game in terms of assets.

I think Forza 3 can only be directly compared to the Gran Turismo series on the PS3, other game engines like Killzone 2 or Uncharted 2 are too different for direct comparisons.


Well it's been confirmed now that Forza 3 will have 16 cars on track on release. KZ2 rendered in native 720p at 30fps and provides for me even after E3 the best graphics on PS3. Forza 3 runs at 60 fps and 720p native with 16 cars on the track. The most important thing though is the polygons per car are 1 million ( quite a bit higher than Prologues and the trackside detail is on a completely different level. GT5 will have to up it's grpahics alot over Prologue just to break even with Forza 3. Looking at other games as well at E3 Alan Wake, Mass Effect 2 and Multiplat games like Lost Planet 2 all battle it out with ease against PS3's best. It goes to show there is basically nothing in it for 1 to be more powerful over the other as I said all along. Alan Wake's lighting for instance is just pure win, and we saw a glimpse of a tornado in Alan Wake where the physics were 2nd to none.

Just like the PS3 upped the anti from MGS4 to KZ2, the 360 has also destroyed Gears 2 graphics and showed more than 4 titles all beating it with ease. Personally this year PS3 wont have the best graphics of 2009. It will be Forza 3.

if you take alway all the unfounded "facts" , take away all the fanboy opinion and what do you have . A steaming pile of...

 

FORZA 3 DOES NOT HAVE 1 MILLION PIXELS PE ,  Zenfolder said it was 800,000 pixels per car . What are you fanboys just adding 200k everytime to make your arguments sweeter ?

They didn't say it had 1,000,000 pixels. Polygon is the word!

Heh yeah I meant to say polygons , Selnor your ignorance is crippling me seriously. They could have used "10X" as a place holder , they could have just been trying convey the idea of a much improved Forza 3 , it is not official confirmation and why wouldn't they say 1,000,000 as opposed to "10X" we all know which sounds better. i mean unless they write "10X" on the box of Forza 3 or in the Forza 3 ads then there is no legal obligation on their part to tell the truth , it's public relations people lie and you can't verify the polygon can't.

If there was 10X the polygon count in a Forza 3 car then it would clearly trump GT5 cars but that isn't the case , GT5:P cars are still argued to look superior. Your arguing over a game released 2 years ago , so despite the fact that neither of us can verify Forza 3's polgyon count , we can compare it to a car made of 200,000 polygons , we see no clear visual advantage , that would lead anyone with reasonable thinking abilities to conclude they were talking outa their asses.

No. To be honest your ignorance is to bloody stupid. Your doing my head in now. Your fanboy BS knows no ends.

"The look and feel of a modern racing game: Forza is the definitive racing game. “Forza Motorsport’s” appreciation of the automobile is due in large part to the team’s attention to detail. This is why automotive engineers from manufacturers like Audi and champion race teams like Peugeot as well as experienced computer graphics specialists from across Microsoft have all teamed up with Turn 10 to make “Forza Motorsport 3” the most beautiful and realistic racing game ever made. All 400-plus cars in the game have been built with more than 10 times the amount of polygons as “Forza Motorsport 2.” This includes painstakingly researched cockpits and interiors for every vehicle. But realism isn’t just about pretty graphics. Turn 10 takes realism to new heights, leading the industry with the most advanced physics model, artificial intelligence and damage calculations. Whether it’s the differences in how each car handles through the corners, how the engines sound at top speed or how different tires and upgrades impact your car’s performance, you’ll find yourself leaning into your turns as if you were really behind the wheel of your favorite ride."

From the official Forza Motorsport website. You should really grow up. You make yourself look silly. Just because GT5's cars have alot less Poly's you cant believe it and have to ignore hard facts. Fanboys will do anything.

http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/fm3_factsheet.htm

Ok let's break this down simply.

(1) a Forza 2 car consists of 100,000 polygons.

(2) a GT5:P car consists of 200,000 polygons.

(3) A Forza 3 car is alleged to have 5X the polygon count of a GT5:P car and 10X the polygon count of a Forza 2 car = 1,000,000 polygons.

(4) It is quite clear that Forza 3 has no clear or signifcant graphical advantage over GT5:P

(5) The revalation of (4) put's into to doubt the informartion put forward , a 5X polygon count should at least result in significant visual difference (800,000) polygons worth of differrence.

(6) Regardless of what is stated in that press release , we are rational beings able to distinguish false for truth , by means of comparison we can safely determine that Forza 3 has nowhere near a 1,000,000 polygon count.

 

The sad thing is that we'd be having the same argument regardless of what turn 10 said , if it was 15X the polygon count then selnor would be blindly arguing that Forza 3 cars had 1,500,000 polygons.

Point 4 is where the problem is. People who have paid £400 for their PS3 dont want to believe that a £129 console is capable of better. Even when it's as clear as night and day that Forza 3 is better than GT5P ( Notice I haven't said GT5, as we need actual cockpit gameplay to judge ).

Problem is at E3 09 M$ really have shown the 360 to be more than capable of matching PS3 power punch for punch. And many PS3 owners who bought into the power thing are on the edge of their tether. I dont doubt that GT5 will be much closer, whether it's slightly better or slightly worse. The point is M$ have made the power thing a moot subject now. Alan Wake was another beautiful game as was Mass Effect 2. But Forza 3 has surprised everyone, not least because instead of an improvement over Forza 2 graphics we got an overhaul. It's almost like Turn 10 took all the comments about Forza 2's graphics to heart and said right we'll show everyone. Pitting side by side cockpit view videos really shows how much more detail is in Forza 3's cars and scenery's.

i can't be bothered to argue opinion Selnor so i'll just present more fact . In God Of War 3 Kratos has only 4X the polygon count of his PS2 counterpart and look how much difference there is in the detail of the character  ( it doesn't need to be said but left is the PS3 and right is the PS2) , keepin in mind that this leap was made over a generation.

 The thing is my argument doesn't rely on GT5 looking superior to Forza 3 . My argument relies on the fact that there is no clear winner betwee nthe two , a 5X polygon count should result in a clear graphical advantage (refer to God OF War 3 if your unsure what i'm talking about) , there is no clear graphical advantage therfore there is no way Forza 3 cars have 1,000,000 polygons.