i wasn't thinking about damage but ability to build cars, tune them, auction house, leagues and their own requierments(you can basically build every car from lower league to be in higher one which demands from you to think and build cars that are both the most powerful and meet requierments of certain leagues) and so on. there was a rumor that Turn 10 will add drift, drag and 1/4mile racing in Forza 3 so with those Forza 3 is really definitive racing sim on the consoles.

You're right.  But honestly, I feel this game JUST beats out PGR4.

@Waron

Yes that's all good and cool stuff. It's almost like an RPG twist to your car. A bit like trying to have a unique toon in an MMO.

However, this just shows how different the 2 games kind of are. GT5 is based on manufacturer cars (as is Forza, I thought) and "limited" by the tech, styles, mechanics of those cars in real life. GT has always been great for tuning your car but it's limited by the "universe" the game is set in.

I'd be pretty sure there will be leagues in GT5 but again based around the limitations of what a real world car is meant to do. No point racing a blueprinted souped up Toyota Yaris in a league of American muscle cars.

Another however, I love the idea of an AH in Forza - again, an MMO concept in a way. Maybe I need to see the E# conference again and understand more how the tuning will work in F3? I'm intrigued.

thank god im not the only one with eyes....

it's not like you can do somethin like this with a yaris, but you can change parts of engine add additional stuff, modify them and so on - it's not Midnight Club or NFS though it's all real. those limitations in leagues are just like in real life racing and that's what i like in Forza - i love building cars and modify them to make them unique or the way i like them to drive for drift, fast tracks, long sprints, tight courses and so on.

The fact you are pimping an update for a demo while Turn 10 delivered Forza 2 two years ago and is about to deliver Forza 3 speaks volumes, albeit you probably don't realize it.

By the way have you even played any Forza? It has manufactured cars as well - all the "limitations" you talk about are limitations decided by Polyphony Digital, not the tech, styles or mechanics of those cars in real life. Heck, even the lower budgeted Enthusia for the ps2 was beating GT4 at the simulation game. Kaz and his team aren't interested on making a proper simulator, because that's not popular. What they do is a game that has cars behaving the way most people expect them to behave. Note such fact is not inherently "evil" - Burnout 3 is still my favorite racing game ever. The problem comes when convincing people that what they are doing is the closest approach to the real thing becomes an essential part of the gaming experience.

By the way, the blueprinted souped up versions are just an additional gameplay element you might engage or not, at your will. It's there just to allow gameplay options and make the game more fun.

i thought it looked kind of cartoonish(not realistic) for my taste, but the crashes were kinda cool

That's because for all the improvements they've made, lightning is still an issue.

I think the graphic looks pretty good from the video.

Honestly I don't think the graphic can reach that kind of level in the actual gameplay.

I see really inconsistence screenshots for F3..some look really good, some look not really good..

Look at the track in this image. The texture is subpar. The cars don't look like the ones in the video either.

But there are screenshots like this one, they really did a good job. It may not be 1080p but the detail level is really high here and no visible jaggies that GT5P is suffering.

Example of a F3 bullshot.

http://www.gtplanet.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fm3_e3_fiorano_22.jpg

That said, looks like F3 will be a great game, but MS's statement saying that it will be the best physics, graphics racer is too much to claim.

Graphically, GT5P already done this more than a year ago.

Physics, I don't think anyone here can claim which one is better with supporting experience.

Final note regarding the team blackjack stunts video, that's a really bad video because it's really showing how "realistic" the game is.

If you switch to reverse at that speed, you're gonna toast the gearbox. Good luck driving like that IRL.

It looks like F3 is focusing from a half-sim racer to a half-arcade racer.

I thought it looked quite good, the presentation was a bit arcadey to be honest, but that's just how they choose to market it. In-car cockpit view is very welcome.

Still the claims that this will destroy GT5 are ridiculous. Graphically, if you can't see these models, as good as they are, aren't on par with those of GT5Prologue, you may have become a fanboy. Also, does anyone know how many cars are they gonna put on screen at once?