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Forums - General - How many users on these boards actually support "The Theory of Evolution"?

ManusJustus said:
Viper1 said:
How does changing the first line of the logic equation make any difference?


Because a logical statement has to have valid inferences.  Your statement that all cats see in the dark was invalid since some cats do not see in the dark.

Read the statement again.  I didn't say "all cats can see in the dark", I said "cats can see in the dark".   Both premises were factual.   Midnight is biologically a cat and cats are scientifically proven to have the ability to see in the dark.  The logical conclusion is that Midnight should be able to see in the dark.   But Midnight is actually blind.   That's a logical curveball.

 

The devil is in the details.

 

 



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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Viper1 said:
ManusJustus said:
Viper1 said:
How does changing the first line of the logic equation make any difference?


Because a logical statement has to have valid inferences.  Your statement that all cats see in the dark was invalid since some cats do not see in the dark.

Read the statement again.  I didn't say "all cats can see in the dark", I said "cats can see in the dark".   Both premises were factual.   Midnight is biologically a cat and cats are scientifically proven to have the ability to see in the dark.  The logical conclusion is that Midnight should be able to see in the dark.   But Midnight is actually blind.   That's a logical curveball.

Your statement is not valid, just as someone else familar with logic said the same thing.

Your statement implied that all cats can see in the dark, which is not true.  You could also have said that most cats see in the dark, which is a true statement but you couldnt draw your conclusion from that premise.




It's quite funny, or should I say hypocritical, to lecture about logic and premises when that person(Manus) stated the premise "things made up don't exist". It's entirely possible that something made-up happens to be true in reality, without the person knowing it. Actually, there's also a frequent area that this happens in. This is rather interesting and falls into psychology, but a lot of made-up stories with a lot of thought put into making it actually end up being true, because everyone unconsciously learns information and sometimes we later think about it without really remembering that we learned it and think it's our original idea. It's unlikely than an entire made-up story from beginning to end is actually true, but multiple parts could be, But anyway.

you're both basically saying the same thing. It's a logical curveball but you have to reformat your statement because of it ; "cats can see in the dark" to something like "cats typically have the ability to see in the dark" which is true, and so the premise is now ok and the logic can be determined.



Wind Shlavitor said:
Final-Fan said:

But for your comparison to hold up (theory of evolution is like programming, consciousness can't be programmed so neither can evolutionary theory account for consciousness) it is assumed that the programmer has perfect knowledge of physical and chemical laws, etc., so the objection of unknown or incomplete laws doesn't hold up.  This is because the point of talking about AI in this discussion is the comparison to evolution according to current theory.  Evolution is happening by itself, without an actual programmer (let's not get onto the God/ID side of things right now...), so the objection of lack of knowledge or skill on the part of the programmer is completely irrelevant, I think. 

For talking about randomness, firstly, are you now saying that you suspect that free will is dependent on randomness?  Secondly, again, that is a limitation of programming (at least as far as we know) that you just said does not apply to biological evolution. 

... oh wait, never mind, now you're saying that consciousness might be programmable but we'll never know.  But doesn't this mean you're abandoning the analogical disproof of the adequacy of evolutionary theory? 

3.  So now you're back to asserting that you have free will without evidence other than, possibly, your feeling that you have it. 

-If everybody has access to this evidence, then you ought to be able to explain it. 

FInally, on evidence you're mistaken, I was referring to where you said things like "Of course some have some ideas, but it always fails to be detailed and convincing at the same time, and usually doesn't try to go out from causal explanations."  To me, this meant that people had submitted explanations and evidence that you found insufficiently compelling, without outright believing they were wrong in the evidence.  So if there's a bunch of evidence that would tend to point in the opposite direction from your position, but you don't feel that there's enough to justify saying you're definitely wrong, then that would be 'evidence you're mistaken that doesn't constitute proof' in your estimation. 

I didn't mean that Free Will is possible because of randomness, but meant that the randomness in quantum physics is unexplainable via causality, and from what I can tell, so is free will, thus free will seems only possible because of this type of factor ( non-causality ).

The programmer does not need perfect knowledge of those laws if he knows what computers can and cannot do.  The laws aren't incomplete, the theories we have are. You don't have to have perfect knowledge to understand the theory of evolution and what is assumed from it. And just like many academic scientists assume causality in the theory of evolution, that's why they assume that you can exactly simulate the human mind on computer; which is wrong.

Abandoning? No it's just because I always like to leave room for error and that is why I was leaving the possibility of consciousness being programmable, but really, I don't think it is. I haven't dropped my position on this topic (analogical disproof of the adequacy of evolutionary theory)

"If everybody has access to this evidence, then you ought to be able to explain it. "

- If I had the capacity, yes.  I don't remember in what language it was.. but they had like 6+ different words for the feeling of anger, each meaning a different kind of feeling, but in english we only have 1 (anger). Well there's 'mad', but it has basically the same meaning.  The best I can do is tell you that the 'experiencing' that you feel and the freedom of choice(free will) that you have are not like anything that computers can achieve. We do base our decisions on factors, but inherantly, we are not limited to those factors - Computers are; you can trace the logic in the code and every single action can be traced to pre-put conditions and formulas, as complex as they are - there is no experience in the treatment of these functions.

As for "Evolution is happening by itself". Well that doesn't matter because in theory of evolution, you can trace back every development and find the associated 'trigger' (action reaction); in other words you can trace back just how every development has come to be, and since dna acts like code, in this case you can trace just how all the 'code' was 'programmed'.

But I understand why you said that, because it wouldn't make sense if in reality it was exactly like a computer right? Right ;)

You have to understand that I only bring about the programming analogy because that's how Academic Science think with the Theory of Evolution. See that's my complaint, their thinking is too much like computer science. I don't think it's fine to ignore non-causal components when it comes to life, just because you don't understand it. (such as quantum physics)

edit: I meant such as IN quantum physics, because obviously multiple area of quantum physics deals with causality.

I have to tell you though, it's a bit hard to debate about certain things, since we understand things a bit differently...

Cause-and-effect-based evolutionary theory can and does make allowances for randomness. 

My biggest problem was that you were saying (or appeared to be saying) the theory of evolution was DEFINITELY lacking this and that, and now you're saying you THINK it is, which is different.  That's why I said "abandoning disproof" because unless you're saying definitely then it's not "disproved". 

Since you're backing down (or perhaps clarifying) to basically a position of doubt that you are simply leaning one way on (albeit strongly), I would prefer to drop the discussion if this sentence isn't grossly mischaracterizing your position and if that's OK with you. 



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Viper1 said:
ManusJustus said:
Viper1 said:
How does changing the first line of the logic equation make any difference?

Because a logical statement has to have valid inferences.  Your statement that all cats see in the dark was invalid since some cats do not see in the dark.

Read the statement again.  I didn't say "all cats can see in the dark", I said "cats can see in the dark".   Both premises were factual.   Midnight is biologically a cat and cats are scientifically proven to have the ability to see in the dark.  The logical conclusion is that Midnight should be able to see in the dark.   But Midnight is actually blind.   That's a logical curveball.

The devil is in the details.

Either the premise was faulty ("all" was implied) or the logic was faulty ("all" was not implied, ergo Midnight, as a cat, does not necessarily have the ability to see in the dark).  You can't have it both ways. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

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Wind Shlavitor said:

It's quite funny, or should I say hypocritical, to lecture about logic and premises...

Whats more funny is your belief in the invisible dragon that serves omlets.

All fictional things made up by man do not exist.  Dragons do not exist, unicorns do not exist, leprachuans do not exist, gods on Mount Olympus do not exist.  What you have trouble understanding is the difference between fictional make believe and made up things that are possible.  I could say that Joe Smith lives in New York and likes to eat apples.  Even though I made that up it very well could be true.  However, if I say that a invisible unicorn lives on the Eifel Tower and shoots lighting bolts out of his a$$, that statement cannot be true.

Just to humor myself, do you think that unicorns and leprachuans exist?  What about leprachuans that ride unicorns?



No, I didn't imply that ALL cats see in the dark, I implied that cats CAN see in the dark. The emphasis is the difference and why the premise still holds.

The fallacy is on the reader to assume which is emphasized as most will assume ALL not CAN.




The rEVOLution is not being televised

Viper1 said:
No, I didn't imply that ALL cats see in the dark, I implied that cats CAN see in the dark. The emphasis is the difference and why the premise still holds.

The fallacy is on the reader to assume which is emphasized as most will assume ALL not CAN.

You implied that all cats see in the dark, you tried to make the connection that since Midnight was a cat then Midnight could see in the dark, hence all cats see in the dark.

That premise in invalid, just as several people here have explained.



ManusJustus said:

Whats more funny is your belief in the invisible dragon that serves omlets.

All fictional things made up by man do not exist.  Dragons do not exist, unicorns do not exist, leprachuans do not exist, gods on Mount Olympus do not exist.  What you have trouble understanding is the difference between fictional make believe and made up things that are possible.  I could say that Joe Smith lives in New York and likes to eat apples.  Even though I made that up it very well could be true.  However, if I say that a invisible unicorn lives on the Eifel Tower and shoots lighting bolts out of his a$$, that statement cannot be true.

Just to humor myself, do you think that unicorns and leprachuans exist?  What about leprachuans that ride unicorns?

 

Egh.. I don't know why I'm still arguing with you...

"All fictional things made up by man do not exist."

Look ok. There's no way using LOGIC to tell if something made up is fictional or not unless you have the proof.

Saying that the possibility for something exists is NOT the same thing as saying something exists absolutely.  If I say I live in Canada, I could have just made that up, but the possibility still exists because as long as a possibility has not been PROVEN wrong, it still exists... I'm NOT saying it exists because it hasn't been proven, I'm saying the POSSIBILITY exists. 
Now taking it a notch further, If I say I have purple eyes, I could have made that up, and you could maybe say that it's not true because you've never seen humans with purple eyes, but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and you can't prove that humans can't develop purple eyes, and so it's still possible because you don't know. I don't have to prove anything to you, because as long as you can't prove it wrong, it's still a possibility, and that's all we're talking about here; possibilities.


Who are you to know what's 100% fictional and what's not? You don't know all the secrets of the universe, and you don't know shit.

You're saying, at some point there's a line, and that if something is too farfetched, then it's definitly not possible. I got news for you, everyone thought it was hella farfetched to be able fly in the past, but we sure hells proved them wrong with planes. Don't you think they thought of flying technology like you do of unicorns and leprecons? What if we find a unicorn fossil in the near future, what will you say? Because you just said that they DON'T exist, yet here they are with proof for unicorns in the near future which means there was the possibility when you stated that. See where I'm going? It's basic logic, and you can't put a line just because you think something is too farfetched, that doesn't mean you have to believe it just because the possibility is there. I think it's possible that a bird might crap on me when it's flying overhead, does that mean I'm gonna cower everytime that happens? No of course not, because it's just a possibility. If I choose to take cover every time one flies overhead, well that's just being precautious...nothing wrong with that. it's not like I waste that much effort.

Sure I'll humour you. Do I think unicorns exist? I have seen no proof indicating that it doesn't, thus it's possible, just like it's possible that it doesn't exist. Do I think it's likely? No. Same thing with leprecons. Do I think leprecons ride unicorns. I've never seen it, but I've never seen any proof indicating that it's not possible. This scenario is very unlikely however, to the point of having almost 0% probability.. however, logically it's still possible as long as that infinitely small fraction of possibility exists. And any scientist would tell you the same. You're being very unreasonable.



Wind Shlavitor said:

You don't know all the secrets of the universe, and you don't know shit.

If I dont know shit, I think it could be assumed that I dont know the secrets of the universe.

As you stated, some fictional made up premises have the probability of near 0%.  What percent do you need in order for you to start to making judgements about our universe?  Everytime I wake up gravity is working, so I'm going to give it a 99.99999999999% chance of working since it has always worked for me and every other person, but I havent tested the future so, for your sake, I'll assume there is a possibility of it not working. 

It would be unreasonable for me to even think about gravity not working, when I go to bed I can say with certainity that gravity will be there in the morning.