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Forums - General Discussion - How many users on these boards actually support "The Theory of Evolution"?

Aquietguy said:
Everyone wants some evidence on ID. Understandable since most haven't heard any before. But here is an example of how science supports ID more. I was debating someone else on anther MB about the same thing. I said that "are we supposed to believe that we come from a fish that swam on a beach". He responded by saying "and we supposed to believe that we were just poofed out of no where". My IP addresses banded before I could respond. Go figure! I guess academia isn't the only place that can't tolerate outside the box thinking.

Any way, some of us have heard of the relationship between matter and energy. That energy and matter are the same and are just in different states. But energy can be turned into matter and matter can be turned into energy. This has already been done in laboratories but only at the atomic level. This is what the replicators on Star Trek The Next Generation was based off of. Those Star Trek writers really did their homework. They were able to create food by turning energy into matter. Something that is obvious beyond what we can do. But for how long? Also their was an episode where Commander Riker was beamed up from an away mission. He made it back to the ship but some kind of way his transporter signature was reflected back and another Riker materialized on the planet. So there were two of them. Of which they found the other Riker years later. I know that this is a TV show, but we know that the relationship between energy and matter is real. How long before we have transporter or replication ability?

If you can create an object using energy, then is it safe to say that you can also create life or a life? No you can't poof life into existence but you can use energy to create life if you had the know how. So in a sense you can say that it is possible for some higher power to just poof us into existence. So their is a valid view for creation.

Where are the valid view of evolution? Where is the observation, which is part of the scientific method? Where is the evidence that cell mutation has benefited the cell? All the evidence that I have seen show that mutation harms and destroys the cell.

Hadn't seen this until it was quoted recently but I'll give a bit of a reply:

First your point about energy and mass is absolutely true and is literally expressed in Einstein's famous equation E=mc^2 (Energy expressed in joules, mass expressed in kg, and the speed of light expressed as meters per second).  This is where the energy comes from in the nuclear reactions we see from nuclear weapons (fusion and fission) and the source of energy for the sun (fusion). What might surprise some is that nuclear fusion and fission are both inefficient ways of releasing this energy compared to what is possible in the best case scenario of anti-matter obliteration (which also might surprise some folks to know is very real, and is something we can produce, albeit in pathetically small quantities).

Now as for how this applies to ID...it really doesn't.  Yes it is possible for an omnipotent being to poof us into existance since we are just energy but you don't need E=mc^2 to make that possible.  If there is an omnipotent being responsible for our presence here there is no reason to think he would be constrained by the physical laws he is ascribed as having put in place.

Finally, the valid view of evolution you were asking about is all over the place actually.  There are tons and tons and tons of examples of micro-evolution of how small changes in a population benefited those who had the trait and allowed them to survive where others died off.  Some of the more popular ones are of House Sparrows which were introduced to North America in the 1800s and exhibit a number of divergent traits in the various regions that they have evolved in with little crossover between populations.  I know the peppered moths during the industrial revolution  is another example of a population that changed in order to survive that is often used as well.

 

PS - As an interesting note on the anti-matter subject our best nuclear plant has 7 reactors producing a combined average of about 44, 500 GW-hours per year.  Just a single gram of matter contains enough energy to produce 25 GW-hours nearly instantaneously compared to the thousands and thousands of kilograms used to produce the 44, 500 GW-hours over the course of a year.



To Each Man, Responsibility
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Evolution - Canada. 

The evidence is overwhelmingly for evolution, or at least adaptation.  But over long enough periods, adaptation becomes evolution.  Biology and physiology make a lot more sense with the understanding of evolution.  Darwin made some pretty astounding observations for his day, and we've brought it a lot further. 

To the point I don't even think it warrants arguing about.

Brief explanation of Evolution. Watch it



For those who are having questions about how evolution/natural selection works, this video, along with the rest of the series, is a very easy to understand.

Natural Selection Made Easy

Evolution Made Easy

Origin of Life Made Easy

 

 



Put me down for Evolution, Kentucky USA.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

I would like to address some flawed assumptions regarding Slimebeast's problem of why we don't have multicellular prokaryotic organisms. (Skip to the end if you don't want to read the wall of text.)

Firstly there seems to be an assumption that somehow multicellular organisms are the pinnacle of evolution and therefore prokaryotic organisms in time should, due to selective pressure evolve into this 'higher' multicellular form. The design of evolution, if we can state it this way, is survival, not specialisation, complexity or diversity per se. The fact that bacteria accounts for more of the earth's biomass than all eukaryotes suggest that perhaps their form, i.e. unicellular is in fact the superior life form in the eyes of evolution.

Secondly we are ignoring a very simple fact regarding prokaryotic cell respiration. Regardless of the huge scope of the bacterial genome it is still bound by the laws of physics. Prokaryotic cell respiration occurs in the cytoplasm and across the plasma membrane, thus it is constrained by the cells surface area to volume ratio. If cells group together, as is the case with some forms of prokaryotes which demonstrate some degree of specialisation, you are still constrained by how efficiently the external cells can respire across a limited cell surface area. Now perhaps bacteria can evolve to increase the concentration of respiratory chain proteins expressed on the cell surface but ultimately that still has it's limits. Perhaps a folded cell membrane could evolve but maybe that makes the bacteria more susceptible to other environmental pressures. If there is indeed a constraint on prokaryotic multicellularity due to simple physical principles then that in turn would account for lack of variation within prokaryotes as there is limited number of changes that could occur within such a simple individual cell that are compatible with survival. Multicellularity allows a greater degree of diversity as cells can specialise and change to a much larger degree without necessarily adversely affecting survival of the organism.

So you question evolution based on the assumption of inevitable multicellularity, which you assume imparts survival benefit, while ignoring the fundamental constraints placed on prokaryotes by their method of respiration. This is not a strong basis on which to question a theory which has held up remarkably well over 150 years.



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Aquietguy said:
Everyone wants some evidence on ID. Understandable since most haven't heard any before. But here is an example of how science supports ID more. I was debating someone else on anther MB about the same thing. I said that "are we supposed to believe that we come from a fish that swam on a beach". He responded by saying "and we supposed to believe that we were just poofed out of no where". My IP addresses banded before I could respond. Go figure! I guess academia isn't the only place that can't tolerate outside the box thinking. Any way, some of us have heard of the relationship between matter and energy. That energy and matter are the same and are just in different states. But energy can be turned into matter and matter can be turned into energy. This has already been done in laboratories but only at the atomic level. This is what the replicators on Star Trek The Next Generation was based off of. Those Star Trek writers really did their homework. They were able to create food by turning energy into matter. Something that is obvious beyond what we can do. But for how long? Also their was an episode where Commander Riker was beamed up from an away mission. He made it back to the ship but some kind of way his transporter signature was reflected back and another Riker materialized on the planet. So there were two of them. Of which they found the other Riker years later. I know that this is a TV show, but we know that the relationship between energy and matter is real. How long before we have transporter or replication ability? If you can create an object using energy, then is it safe to say that you can also create life or a life? No you can't poof life into existence but you can use energy to create life if you had the know how. So in a sense you can say that it is possible for some higher power to just poof us into existence. So their is a valid view for creation. Where are the valid view of evolution? Where is the observation, which is part of the scientific method? Where is the evidence that cell mutation has benefited the cell? All the evidence that I have seen show that mutation harms and destroys the cell.

 

The fact that life can be created does not mean life was created. Also your post fails to answer the question of 'who created the creator' which is where any intelligent design argument grounded on our laws of pe hysics fails.

Also if you want observation of evolution I'll post this link again because I just can't get enough of it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

How is that not evolution?



Evolution !



Rath said:

The fact that life can be created does not mean life was created. Also your post fails to answer the question of 'who created the creator' which is where any intelligent design argument grounded on our laws of pe hysics fails.

Also if you want observation of evolution I'll post this link again because I just can't get enough of it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

How is that not evolution?

Whoa that is amazing.  I figured it would affect the social behaviors that quickly, and had read about evolution happening quickly before, but organs developing that fast is just incredible.

I wonder how many organs develop out of food in one way or another.



The Ghost of RubangB said:
Rath said:

The fact that life can be created does not mean life was created. Also your post fails to answer the question of 'who created the creator' which is where any intelligent design argument grounded on our laws of pe hysics fails.

Also if you want observation of evolution I'll post this link again because I just can't get enough of it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

How is that not evolution?

Whoa that is amazing.  I figured it would affect the social behaviors that quickly, and had read about evolution happening quickly before, but organs developing that fast is just incredible.

I wonder how many organs develop out of food in one way or another.

Hey that is pretty badass. I've always wondered when the first directly measurable evidence of species evolution would occur. Not sure if this is the first, but, it is pretty awesome eitherway.



superchunk said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Rath said:

The fact that life can be created does not mean life was created. Also your post fails to answer the question of 'who created the creator' which is where any intelligent design argument grounded on our laws of pe hysics fails.

Also if you want observation of evolution I'll post this link again because I just can't get enough of it.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm

How is that not evolution?

Whoa that is amazing.  I figured it would affect the social behaviors that quickly, and had read about evolution happening quickly before, but organs developing that fast is just incredible.

I wonder how many organs develop out of food in one way or another.

Hey that is pretty badass. I've always wondered when the first directly measurable evidence of species evolution would occur. Not sure if this is the first, but, it is pretty awesome eitherway.

I don't think this would qualify.  No more then fruit fly expierments anwyay.  These lizards are still considered the same species afterall.