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Forums - General Discussion - How many users on these boards actually support "The Theory of Evolution"?

The Ghost of RubangB said:
Slimebeast said:
Killergran said:
Slimebeast said:

Because that would need proof that says that "inventing" the cellcore is an extremely unlikely event in organisms.
(but I have never ever heard anyone claim that)

The sheer unlikeliness of that happening is staggering. The fact that we had prokaryots for a billion years (according to Wikipedia) before we had Eukaryots should tell you how unlikely it is. It's not like there were much fewer bacterias around then. The major theories always starts with a bacteria however, which is kinda the antithesis of your argument. Bacteria evolving into eucaryotes, evolving into multicellular organisms.

So when you say "Why hasn't bacteria evolved into multicellular beings?" my answer would be, "They did". And the answer to the question "Why can't we see that happening with bacteria today?" would be "We're not looking closely enough".

"The fact that we had prokaryots for a billion years (according to Wikipedia) before we had Eukaryots should tell you how unlikely it is." - doesnt prove anything for me. It's other way around. Knowing what I know about bacteria makes it impossible for me to think there was 1 billion years between pro- and eukaryotes.

So when you say "Why hasn't bacteria evolved into multicellular beings?" my answer would be, "They did".

- yes yes, do u think I missed that there exists multicellular organisms? That the two lines split?
That's just looking at the problem from another angle, or rephrasing it. Why did it only happen once (knowing that the bacteria kept being widespread and successful for 100s of millions of years)?

Maybe there's too much competition for it to happen again?  It only needed to happen once, and now maybe there are more complex organisms better at doing what the new guys try to do?

 

 That's a basic, mandatory question that has to be asked of course, and has to be answered. 
It's not satisfying in this case though. Bacteria are too many, too competitive in so many ways. That argument can be used, the argument about niches and competition, in many cases (such as the giraffe has a long neck so he eats all the high leafs etc, so the antilope never got a chance to really compete with the master giraffe, therefor antiliopes and shit dont have long necks) but bacteria is a different case because the scale is so extreme. Just think about it, you have 10 pounds of bacteria in your body at any given moment. Those guys are everywhere.



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Rath said:
Slimebeast said:
Killergran said:
Slimebeast said:

Because that would need proof that says that "inventing" the cellcore is an extremely unlikely event in organisms.
(but I have never ever heard anyone claim that)

The sheer unlikeliness of that happening is staggering. The fact that we had prokaryots for a billion years (according to Wikipedia) before we had Eukaryots should tell you how unlikely it is. It's not like there were much fewer bacterias around then. The major theories always starts with a bacteria however, which is kinda the antithesis of your argument. Bacteria evolving into eucaryotes, evolving into multicellular organisms.

So when you say "Why hasn't bacteria evolved into multicellular beings?" my answer would be, "They did". And the answer to the question "Why can't we see that happening with bacteria today?" would be "We're not looking closely enough".

"The fact that we had prokaryots for a billion years (according to Wikipedia) before we had Eukaryots should tell you how unlikely it is." - doesnt prove anything for me. It's other way around. Knowing what I know about bacteria makes it impossible for me to think there was 1 billion years between pro- and eukaryotes.

So when you say "Why hasn't bacteria evolved into multicellular beings?" my answer would be, "They did".

- yes yes, do u think I missed that there exists multicellular organisms? That the two lines split?
That's just looking at the problem from another angle, or rephrasing it. Why did it only happen once (knowing that the bacteria kept being widespread and successful for 100s of millions of years)?

 

Considering that more complex lifeforms already exist and are widespread is there any pressure for bacteria to evolve into a ecological niche which is already filled?

 

Yes, of course. And Im sure u agree (to a degree).

Bacteria probably compete with other organisms, and sometimes they win, and whipe out the competition. Im sure u beleive that happens all the time through evolution history.

"Pressure" is a relative term. There's always some degree of pressure in any environment (or population, depends on what perspective youre looking from) to compete and to evolve. I mean, that's the fundamental principle for evolution theory!!!!!!

(also u could imagine a case where bacteria invents their own, but complex, unique niches - because surely u aint saying that new radically different species will never evolve on earth anymore?)

 



After read many books on evolution, such as the Origin of Species, the Blind Watchmaker, and a variety of biology books, i realized that many of these theories based around evolution are true. I still believe that there is some sort of deity that started life, but i can see how animals could evolve through natural selection. So to say it short.

I believe in Evolution



The only problem with that Akuma is that if evolution was only within species you would still expect similar species to be near it due to it being what's best for that particular enviorment.

Convergent Evolution is ironically a good example of this.

Birds and Bats both have wings yet their last common ancestor did not.

It does not seem impossible that a creature could develop a system that is very similar to another less complex creature.

 



I can prove intelligent design is bullshit. Wisdom teeth and birth defects.
If our design ever was intelligent, it's pretty fucked up now.



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WessleWoggle said:
I can prove intelligent design is bullshit. Wisdom teeth and birth defects.
If our design ever was intelligent, it's pretty fucked up now.

 

also redundant DNA, and the sharing of 98% of our genes with champanzees. There are alot of evidences.



Slimebeast said:
^That's the point, highwaystar101. We know mutation rate and evolution/change is extremely high in bacteria, yet they don't seem to be able to take the fundamental - many would say inevitable - step to become multicellular organisms.

You do realize that bacteria is asexual right?  This means that unlike sexual multicellular organisms they do not procreate and the effect is that the bacteria they create through binary fission are identical to them with the only exception being possible mutations.  The original bacteria and any future bacteria it produces are not guaranteed to have the new trait or any new trait.

It is extremely easy for asexual populations to take divergent evolutionary paths and truly needs no special explanation because statistically they are not just capable of diverging with one path changing and the other staying static, but it is in fact highly likely.  Only in scenarios where an evolutionary path becomes untenable for survival in the environment would it actually die off, meaning that all sorts of divergent paths with little or even no actual advantage could stick around for long periods of time (this is why bacteria come in different "strains".  It is because it is extremely easy for them to diverge given their fairly unique characteristics).

Even then in the case of bacteria the older versions typically do not die out completely but become dormant or find other ways of surviving until conditions become more hospitable.  They are a particularly resilient brand of life and their resiliency combined with their asexual reproduction explains fully, clearly, and without any inconsistency why they are capable of having highly adaptive populations while also having extremely stable populations.

I understand that many have objections to evolution but I don't think there is a very strong case to be made on the subject of bacterial evolution as it is a very well understood area both scientifically and statistically.  If what you were suggesting had some credence it would be a simple matter of formulating a mathematical proof to disprove macro-evolution using the statistical improbabilities you're claim.  There has certainly been plenty of intelligent and capable individuals who could have done this and would love to have done it as they could make an absolutely massive name for themselves, yet they have not.  This area of statistics and probability is not even a particularly difficult area and I have a hard time believing such a contentious topic has not been examined from this angle thoroughly. 

If however I'm wrong on that and this has not been explored I would encourage you to produce such a proof as a simple course in statistics and probability would be more than sufficient to do so.



To Each Man, Responsibility
Slimebeast said:

Knowing what I know about bacteria makes it impossible for me to think there was 1 billion years between pro- and eukaryotes.

I present you evidence of a fact that doesn't jive with what you believe, so you dismiss the evidence. Not nice.



This is invisible text!

Damn bedtime. Now don't you all discuss too much until tomorrow!



Aquietguy said:
Everyone wants some evidence on ID. Understandable since most haven't heard any before. But here is an example of how science supports ID more. I was debating someone else on anther MB about the same thing. I said that "are we supposed to believe that we come from a fish that swam on a beach". He responded by saying "and we supposed to believe that we were just poofed out of no where". My IP addresses banded before I could respond. Go figure! I guess academia isn't the only place that can't tolerate outside the box thinking.

Any way, some of us have heard of the relationship between matter and energy. That energy and matter are the same and are just in different states. But energy can be turned into matter and matter can be turned into energy. This has already been done in laboratories but only at the atomic level. This is what the replicators on Star Trek The Next Generation was based off of. Those Star Trek writers really did their homework. They were able to create food by turning energy into matter. Something that is obvious beyond what we can do. But for how long? Also their was an episode where Commander Riker was beamed up from an away mission. He made it back to the ship but some kind of way his transporter signature was reflected back and another Riker materialized on the planet. So there were two of them. Of which they found the other Riker years later. I know that this is a TV show, but we know that the relationship between energy and matter is real. How long before we have transporter or replication ability?

If you can create an object using energy, then is it safe to say that you can also create life or a life? No you can't poof life into existence but you can use energy to create life if you had the know how. So in a sense you can say that it is possible for some higher power to just poof us into existence. So their is a valid view for creation.

Where are the valid view of evolution? Where is the observation, which is part of the scientific method? Where is the evidence that cell mutation has benefited the cell? All the evidence that I have seen show that mutation harms and destroys the cell.

 I tried to make your post semi-readable. I hope you don't mind. My response is going to be a simple two words and hopefully you will respond with something relevant. Testable Hypotesis. Without it you have no theory, you have little to no evidence, and you cannot enter it into a serious scientific debate. This is not a conspiracy against "outside the box" thinkers. This is a request made to everyone who attempts to replace a currently accepted theory. If you cannot provide one, then youe hypothesis is not scientifically sound.

 Evolution has been demonstrated repeatedly. Antibiotics are limited in use, and cycled because bacteria will evolve and become resistant to it. Various insects become immune to pesticides. The only thing we have yet to prove experimentally is a change from one species to another, but there is other evidence that helps support the arguement on that front. None of it comes from a mid-90s SciFi show based on a ficitional (and extremely improbable) future.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229