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Forums - Gaming Discussion - My XBox 360 vs PS3 comparison (mostly technical)

MikeB on 20 September 2007

@ Darc Requiem

The 360 CPU has 3 cores, the Cell has 1 core and 7 SPUs


Thus, the PS3 has a far higher peak performance. The SPEs are like full processors (or systems on a chip if you will), each having their own dedicated small yet ultra-fast dedicated RAM.

The Cell should be able to deliver much improved, AI, Physics, Procedural Synthesis, etc, nomatter what you may have read elsewhere. If some developers don't move their code onto the SPEs then the XBox 360 may well have an advantage. But it is expected that most 3rd generation PS3 games will have seen the bulk of their game engines moved onto the Cell's SPEs.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

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sieanr on 20 September 2007

you meant that the Cell "deal" between Sony, IBM and Toshiba in 2001 was quite late. Keep in mind that the above quote is an ENTIRE PARAGRAPH. Perhaps I should have realized that you meant the "deal" in late 2004 for the graphics card, but this was an honest mistake.


It was in relation to the Sony nvidia deal.

Seperate paragraph =/= seperate subject

P.S. Oh, and may I presume that you agree to the question I posed at the end of my previous post? (Assuming you comprehend the question I am asking here, of course.)


The Cell wasn't rushed, its just being used in a role it wasn't exactly intended for.

If you just look at the Cell design, the similarities between the SPUs and Sharder pipelines in a GPU should immedietly jump out. The Cell was designed to perform many functions a traditional GPU can - why would they do that if they always intended to use it as just a CPU.

Where are you getting the idea that I ever, EVER argued that the PS3's GPU was not "rushed" into the PS3's design? I defy you to show where I have said such a thing. You are attacking me for disagreeing with something I didn't disagree with. Admittedly, I had a similar misconception about you, but I had a much better reason for my misunderstanding, and was never insulting or condescending -- until now.


The fact that you claim Sony never seriously considered a Cell GPU solution implies that the current GPU arrangment was not rushed.

If Sony had never seriously considered using the Cell for everything, then what was the intended GPU? Since you offered no alternative, I assumed that you meant Sony always planned on something from Nvidia or Ati, and thus had planned as such from the outset.

[edit: just to clear up any possible misconceptions, I am not defending MikeB's constant use of Amiga analogies -- I take no position on it. But your statement sarcastic irony that I quoted proves nothing at all.]


Congradulations on understanding something I wrote



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

sieanr on 20 September 2007
MikeB said:
@ Darc Requiem

The 360 CPU has 3 cores, the Cell has 1 core and 7 SPUs


Thus, the PS3 has a far higher peak performance. The SPEs are like full processors (or systems on a chip if you will), each having their own dedicated small yet ultra-fast dedicated RAM.

The Cell should be able to deliver much improved, AI, Physics, Procedural Synthesis, etc, nomatter what you may have read elsewhere. If some developers don't move their code onto the SPEs then the XBox 360 may well have an advantage. But it is expected that most 3rd generation PS3 games will have seen the bulk of their game engines moved onto the Cell's SPEs.

Too bad the SPUs are, in no way, independant

LOL @ "system on a chip" claim for the SPU



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

sieanr on 20 September 2007

Nah DOS didn't kill the Amiga. Of course greatly preferring preemptive multitasking 32-bit GUI-based multimedia OSes in the 80s, I wasn't much a fan of MSDOS, although I did tinker with it and MacOS for a while under emulation. Using MacOS software on the Amiga was much cooler though, as the Amiga could emulate MacOS software through a software emulator faster than an equavalently specced genuine Mac could, all this while still alllowing for true multitasking (at the time MacOS couldn't do this).


Yet you cite the "MS FUD campaign" as part of the reason the Amiga never succeeded in America and ultimatly failed in europe. And this is actually something you posted earlier in this thread.

But hey, you still managed to post something about the Amiga that was in no way related to what I said. Good job!

You attacked me before within the Lair thread for bringing up Turrican 1 & 2 with regard to Factor 5. I liked Turrican a lot and Factor 5 is planning a PSN version for the PS3. People often talk about things using their own experiences as examples. Please cut out the cheapshots.


You claimed that Turrican lookde good on the Amiga, yet didn't "max out" the hardware.

I took issue with how you claimed a game made by one man, who let Factor 5 port his game to the Amiga, as being a great example of Factor 5s prowess. Personally, I think thats just a stupid comparison.

Please cut out unneeded blathering about the amiga.

No, just reread the whole thread and put the PS3 and XBox 360 hardware specs and advantages side by side. Then I think you don't really need PR spokesman to tell you which design is (far) more powerful for the long run.

IMO, a lot of misinformation has been addressed within this thread and some things have been clarified, for example with regard to threading. I hope this will result into fewer attacks against the PS3 and more constraint from XBox 360 fans. More hardware pushing games and price drops will come in due time!


You're the one who draws incorrect comparisons between the Cell and the Amiga.

In fact, I distinctly remember you making an argument similar to this thread before, but with out the "too long;didn't read" part. In that post the crux of your argument was an IBM document comparing the Cell to the likes of the amiga - you then claimed that this meant the PS3 was years ahead of its design like the amiga. You seemed to lap up the PR speak when it was something you wanted to hear, yet everything else is FUD.

The fact is that a lot of R&D went into designing and developing the Cell processor, thousands of manyears work, A LOT more than is the case with regard to the Xenon processor.


Even more time, money and effort went into the Core Duo archeitecture, yet it doesn't seem like you have a hard on for that chip :(

Why should I give a shit about how long a chip took to develop?

Probably for a similar reason why the Forbes article in the original post mentioned it. IMO my examples adds a wider scope and perspective to judge the PS3 situation. The Amiga was revolutionary for its time, but it took game developers a while to take advantage of the design compared to the Atari ST.

One of the Amiga's main strongpoints was that the design allowed to take a lot of workload off the main CPU. The SPEs allow to take workload off the PPE (and RSX).


Except the SPEs are dependant on the PPU for instructions. A far better analogy would be an orchestra - the SPEs are the musicians and the PPU is the director.

The Forbes article made a comparison between the PS3 and the Amiga in the most superficial terms; apparently you took it literally.



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Final-Fan on 20 September 2007

It was in relation to the Sony nvidia deal.

Seperate paragraph =/= seperate subject

I guess I was just grasping for something that actually addressed the main point of the post you were responing to. Sorry for not realizing there was no such thing. Also: "separate"

The fact that you claim Sony never seriously considered a Cell GPU solution implies that the current GPU arrangment was not rushed.

If Sony had never seriously considered using the Cell for everything, then what was the intended GPU? Since you offered no alternative, I assumed that you meant Sony always planned on something from Nvidia or Ati, and thus had planned as such from the outset.

I merely assumed you were aware of your own post in which you stated:

Relativly late in its design cycle Sony came to the realization that 4 Cells would be too expensive and not offer enough performance for graphics. So, Sony went to ATI to ask for a graphics solution. For a while, it looked like they were going to have a deal, but things feel through.

Sony then went to Nvidia, who offered them a quick and dirty solution.

I made it clear that I was rejecting the idea that Sony seriously considered a 4-Cell design beyond the early concept stage, while remaining at least open to the idea that the rest of your information (namely, botched deal with ATI) was accurate.

That scenario, if true, would take care of the "rushed GPU" very nicely without any mention of a multiple-Cell design. Did you assume I was just too stupid to remember what you posted, or were you the forgetful one?

Finally,

If you just look at the Cell design, the similarities between the SPUs and Sharder pipelines in a GPU should immedietly jump out. The Cell was designed to perform many functions a traditional GPU can - why would they do that if they always intended to use it as just a CPU.

I am (and have been) aware of the Cell-GPU similarities, but this in no way implies that it was meant to substitute for the GPU in the PS3.

P.S. Since all you did to my other post was direct yet another sarcastic comment at my edit (which was only meant to minimalize the seemingly rampant miscommunication occurring recently), can I rightly infer that you have no response to the actual points in that post?



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MikeB on 21 September 2007

@ sieanr

Except the SPEs are dependant on the PPU for instructions. A far better analogy would be an orchestra - the SPEs are the musicians and the PPU is the director.

The Forbes article made a comparison between the PS3 and the Amiga in the most superficial terms; apparently you took it literally.


Yes and no. I would rather compare the PPE to a manager who does do some additional work within a company himself apart from just telling others what to do (like in the real world, telling others what to do isn't very (proccessing) intensive work, compared to what needs to be done). The SPEs in the PS3 are like 7 talented hard working employees, who can work independently once they are told what to do.

The SPE is a self-contained vector processor which acts as an independent processor. So, each SPE can perform multiple operations simultaneously with a single instruction. The DMA device in each SPE handles the movement of data between local memory and the main memory.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

MikeB on 21 September 2007

@ sieanr

Even more time, money and effort went into the Core Duo archeitecture, yet it doesn't seem like you have a hard on for that chip :(


I don''t know if that's even true, but in any case the Cell processor is far more interesting to me. I am not too fond of x86 processors anyway, due to legacy bagage. Legacy software compatibility is important for desktop systems, but in many cases this also results in huge technical and design trade-offs. Most Low-level developers will probably tell you they would rather work with something PowerPC-like.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

starcraft on 21 September 2007
Nidan said:
MikeB said:
@ erikguy

The PPE doesnt process any game information. It just distributes processing jobs to the SPEs.


Sure it does, many multi-platform PS3 games don't even use the SPEs yet.

For example the visually impressive yet mediocre game Genji 2 is confirmed not the be using the SPEs at all. Reread the long list of developer comments, PS3 developers are still just in the process of moving more of their game engines onto the SPEs. By doing so, they actually take workload off the PPE, which can then concentrate on for example AI or other things, but like in Heavenly Sword and Lair the opposite can also be done by putting much of their AI on the SPEs.

Hi everyone, i read VGcharts daily, but only decided to join the forums after reading this amusing thread.

(if anything i am a Nintendo fanboy)

Anyway on with my point: I find it strange that a game like Genji 2 is confirmed to not be sing the SPEs at all when they will be using the sony PS3 complier, which as any good complier would optimize the code as best as the can to use idle SPE.

Sure programming directly for the SPEs would give better results than the generic complier, but i really find it hard to believe that the SPEs are not used at all.

I have no arguments that the CPU on the PS3 has higher potential than the Xenon, but the Graphic chip on the Xbox is far better than on the PS3 which in my opinion makes up for it’s down fall. That coupled with the xbox being released a year earlier should provide a huge advantage for MS as with time the DEVs are able to optimize their code to push out a little bit more.

I like to think of it this way, we can always talk about what’s coming in 6- 12 months but I want to play it now and not waste my time. The Xbox360 through this generation will be the now, while PS3 will be the later (except for timed releases which have been engineered to tackle this). I don’t want to be the person playing the hottest game 6 months after my friends when they have moved onto something better and newer!!!!!

MS only blunder this generation is the RROD, if they tackle it soon then they will be dominant, if they don’t the PS3 may edge them out. ( anyone that flames that Xbox live costs money hasn’t even experienced it and doesn’t know what they are missing)

My only other issue about the memory bandwidth / latency issue is that no one has taken the time to really explain it to MikeB fully, I don’t have the time at the moment to explain it fully, but its my opinion that if explained fully and correctly MikeB opinion may sway a little. (If I do get time, I will make a post)


 Welcome to VG Chartz!



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

MikeB on 22 September 2007

My only other issue about the memory bandwidth / latency issue is that no one has taken the time to really explain it to MikeB fully


I am still waiting. I think the figures speak for themselves, but I am always interested in well argumented second opinions and perspectives.



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales

MikeB on 23 September 2007

@ Darc Requiem

One is dedicated to the OS and one is disabled to increase yields. That is setting aside the fact that another can be pulled away at anytime by the OS as it has priority.


I just learned that this rumour regarding a second SPE is complete bogus:

"Originally Posted by mckmas8808

Phil that part was MADE UP. Understand that article was created from conversations here at B3D. Nobody here (developer wise) has ever said that a second SPE will be used for special OS calls. That job would go to the first and only SPE reserved for the O.S."

"Indeed. There has never been talk about second SPE for OS.
Incidently a similar heated debate is raging at the sony's private developer forums. Recently the OS 'cost' was officially confirmed so people are understandably a bit upset."


So, if you encounter XBox 360 fans spreading such and other rumours, let's try to keep misinformation to a minimum, so consumers can make better educated purchase decisions!



Naughty Dog: "At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

PS3 vs 360 sales