seece said: No I feel sorry for her, she is clearly not anti gay she just believes in traditional values and all that, thats how she was brought up Perez Hilton's is such a moron

He's a douchebag but not a moron.

I want to add to this topic, but I'm currently too tired to sit here long.

I will say this though. I think that the opposition to gay culture in all aspects: religious, parental, societal, governmental, psychological, etc. is why gay culture is what it is. It has been ingrained into the lives of children who are developing and remains with them as they get older. It is also reinforced by those who had suffered similar reactions who are already older. The acceptance and respect that people generally have for the heterosexual way of life is to such an exclusive degree that it generates rejection of a person's natural gay feelings and is at direct odds with those gay adolescents who just want to be understood and loved. They are chased away from those who should love them and driven into the hands of people who have been corrupted by the same societal rejection. The "core" culture is one created by being pushed away by society through an attempt to find its own and then fed on by the existing culture. It cycles itself.

I'll see what anybody says to that and then hopefully respond later.

Oh and gay marriage (at least in the sense of a legal union, not religious which the state should stay out of) is one thing that could (A) help stop the divide between accepting a person's feelings and love depending on who they love, and (B) will give something that these people swayed into the culture can at least look to for some sense of justification to their feelings and a more acceptable sense of what heterosexuals would consider normal relationship habits (something that would also put more emphasis on love rather than lust and sex, and would help cut down on the spread of STDs and just a degrading sense of self in general).  I do not think that the concept of gay marriage is simply a symbol.  On the surface it may seem as such, but it is a reinforcement of certain thought patterns that would greatly help gay culture in general.  It is a huge step in taking a gay person's feelings out of the alley ways, bars, and clubs, and bringing it into a more respectable and productive household environment providing for personal growth, acceptance, stability, and effectiveness.

I agree to a certain degree, I don't think a lot of guys run towards that type of culture aka "the scene" because they have been rejected, more they feel they can express themselves better, and to be quite frank they stand a better chance of getting laid. Not everything is as complex as you made out.

I grew up being bullied for being gay, I stuck up for myself and I'm certainly not running away feeling rejected ...

What do you know.  I stayed a little longer. :p  Thanks for replying.  I'm always afraid when I post that someone might chew me out.  lol.  I have confidence issues. So one reason I don't look right away is that I'm really just too "tired" to deal with harsh backlash that would require me to filter an emotional response into something of more coherence.

People do have a tendency to go where they are accepted.  When we look at high school kids, they are in general subconsciously looking for acceptence and identity.  When peers treat them like they are gay, many start to think that that is all that they are....gay.  Some lose sense of anything else that makes them who they are.  This even happens in some degree when it is a joking, friendly, or positive treatment.  This is natural of their peers, because they are approached with something new that they might not fully understand.  What is worse is that in this encourageable state, they are then taken into a very competitive environment where sleeping with people is one path to popularity, drugs another, and performing or showing off your body is another.  Over time this strengthens a focus toward sex that can remain throughout the person's life.  And of course there are also facets of it that revolve around getting paid to have sex of course, usually with older members of the "scene."  This stems from this same process but is a different discussion.  But none of this is as bad as a new person coming in with wide eyes and learning a new environment just to be taken advantage of by someone who already "knows" the scene.  Most likely the very "friend" who introduced them, or a friend of that friend who they think they can trust.  Thus is the beginning of the cycle.  Or we could say that the beginning of the cycle is why they felt they had to do something different to find acceptance and identity to begin with.  Something that should not have to take place.

Certainly not everyone gets pulled fully into the situation, people have different paths, but that is how many situations happen.  That is why veterans have the phrase "fresh meat."  That "fresh meat" is likely a child (in life and finding himself) of a situation that he didn't feel like he/she belonged in.

Take a child though who doesn't ever go to a club or bar.  They might look for acceptance on the internet or might just be bait on a social networking site simply by having a young picture and putting up the word "gay" for sexuality.  Again, similar path but through a different entrance.

If they don't take either path, they are still subject to small comments at school or at home that help single out the person's feelings about their sexuality as an important topic.  So much so that they make it a focus in their life.  This takes away from other ambitions, and may cause them to take on maneurisms that they wouldn't normally take on.  All of these during the crucial and fragile developmental years can also deeply impact a person's psychology. That is why many psychiatrists approach homosexuals from a standpoint of personal acceptance as a primary goal and solution to problems that may not seem initially related.

Big scary wall of text! haha I'll read this in the morning and reply :)

:)  sorry.  I tend to do that.

about your experience, you may have been one of the stronger ones, seece.  While you might have risen above it, i'm sure it still affected you in some way, however small it may seem to you now.  I live in the US, so things might be a bit different here as well, but I was strong in who I was growing up.  I didn't feel that anybody needed to know anything that wasn't their business.  I knew who I was and that is all that mattered.  Not everyone reacts the same way.  There are a lot of people who stay in the closet until they are much older too.

I'm from California and I say yes. Did you even see Perez Hilton after Miss America? He was bashing her and calling her bad words.

These are interesting psychologics, although Im a little sceptical of how common and representative it is.

R u saying that these people wouldnt become homosexual if they lived in a different environment where they didnt get lured in by gay mentors into the "scene" like your describing above? And r u talking from your own experience?

The Ghost of RubangB said: starcraft said: The Ghost of RubangB said: starcraft said: The meat argument is ridiculous. But it is still more relevant to this debate than the race argument. You seriously think that comparing civil rights movements to civil rights movements is irrelevant, while comparing gay marriage to veganism is relevant but ridiculous? I didnt say that veganism was relevant.  I said it was more relevant.  Given how little relevance race has to this debate, you can consider them both irrelevant.  starcraft said: I like Bacon said: starcraft said: The meat argument is ridiculous. But it is still more relevant to this debate than the race argument.  Why? Most people who are gay are born that way. Probably well over 90%. I have never met a gay person who has chosen to be gay. I've never seen any credibly evidence supporting the notion that 0-5 year olds are emphatically gay or straight... Of course you've never seen any credible evidence if you've never looked for it. I was completely disgusted by girls at age 3, because they had cooties, but it was obvious that I was straight because I didn't think boys had cooties.  Boys were neutral to me.  If you really think that nobody is aware of their sexuality at age 3, go ask 10 people when they first realized they liked girls or boys, and see how many of them say 2, 3, 4, or 5.  Anything later is some serious denial. When I was 6 I felt my mates balls as a matter of routine.  Given my straight nature, I'd say it turned out to be largely irrelevant, along the same lines as most of the points you've made in this thread. @first part: People like you make race relevant by using similar "separate but equal" arguments to discriminate against gays as were previously used to discriminate against racial minorities. @second part: Feeling your mate's balls was you being young and trying to learn about balls and your friend, and may have been sexually exploratory in some way, but definitely not sexuality-defining.  So THAT is irrelevant.  Sexuality is defined by who you love, not whose balls you touch.  I could go grab every nutsack on my block, and it wouldn't turn me or anybody else gay.

Just to play devils advocate... wasn't seperate but equal only considered unconstitutional because it was observed that things that were seperate weren't equal.  IE in practice.

So the colored bathrooms weren't as clean as the white ones etc.

If everything actually was equal under the law with how it was handled.  If you had a "Straight Marriage" and "Gay Marriage" and both were given equal rights..

that would be consitituional.

Wow, this is still going. She's entitled to her opinion, whether or not it is a good one. But some people are assuming that she would have won anyways.

And those of you who are acting like she was wronged and robbed, do you even know who won this competition? She is getting so much press because of this and has benefited immensely. She is riding this wave for all it is worth. I read that she was getting job offers and everything else you could imagine from all over the place from people trying to rally around her and protect her.

These are the facts, plain and simple. Democrats are making this out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is. Republicans are making this out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is.