By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - Healthcare isn't a business, it's peoples lives

^The poorer people get better pet treatment. You only pay what you feel you can pay for veterinary bills if you're below a certain wage (which includes nothing).

The UK has a Medicaid system for pets. British pets have similar rights to sick, poor Americans?



Around the Network
SamuelRSmith said:

@Kasz You have people like that in the US, too. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Poverty levels, I believe, are roughly the same in both the US and the UK.

Watch this if you want to know just how badly some Americans have to live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD65UKgB6hU

It's a stream of a BBC documentary (you can't watch it on the BBC site because you're outside of the UK).

The poverty levels are the same... but that's not the same as quality of life.

Poverty as the way your talking about is "relative poverty" which is ranked within a country.  If you have a more socialistic way of spreading the wealth... your going to score higher on a "poverty" ranking.  The fact that the US and UK are so close more highlights the differences.

Also these people live well better then what Nintendomination was talking about.  Due to things such as food banks as mentioend.  The video is pretty sensationalistic honestly. 

For example... that house... lots of tracks of land have sold for a dollar even before the economic criss.

The Gini coeefcient barely rose under bush... at all.  Which is the distribution of wealth.

George W. Bush was the best president in regards to keeping the gap between the rich and poor down since WW2.

Like seriously... this is just a poorly done documentry.



Rpruett said:
vlad321 said:
mrstickball said:
vlad321 said:
Viper1 said:

That's a rather dubious proposition though.  You can't base a health care system on something like that.

 

Well what I'm saying is to let the government pay the researchers and doctors to discover the cure. Maybe slightly inefficient (maybe if people in government were assigned by merit not favor done to the guy above) but it would still be better off for everyone than if a business did it. I'd rather pay the government than some person in a business, at least I control who I'm paying for a week every 4 years, not so with a business.

At least the politicians have a little more incentive than jsut money, they need to get re-elected, so they serve the people at least to a larger amount of a degree than a pure businessman.

 

Wrong. You elect businessmen with your dollars every day. You elect politicians once every 4 years in the US, but the lifespan of a businessman is far worse if they perform badly. How many CEOs get fired a year versus politicans? I'd argue that the CEO has to do far more to be viable than the politician. Not only this, many Americans vote for politicians not based on results, but rather promises. Politics is far more promise-driven than results-driven.

Because of that, capitalism-based programs can, and always will be better when money is involved. Businesses seek to be more efficient than the next one, because there's something called 'competition'.

And that's what truly makes capitalism based solutions better: Competition. With public healthcare, pension, and schools, there is absolutely, positively, no competition for something 'better' - it just exists. With no real competition in a given field, the quality suffers. Go look at the US education system. When it was private-based, it was much better in quality. But when federal funding took it over in the name of fairness, we've now plunged ourselves in a bad mess - more problems, less solutions, because those that are in power really don't have the abilities, nor drive, to create true solutions.

Attack all you want, but the United States, despite being this 'hyper-capitalist' state that some deride, still is one of the most prosperous nations in the world, and did it with much bigger obstacles than what Europe has faced.

 

 

No, just... No. The ONLY reason the US is "prospering" is because of the fact that every other country was anihilated thoroughly in the 2 world wars.

Well,  whose fault is that? Shouldn't France and other countries be able to protect themselves?  I mean America was essential into winning both of those wars.  Why was America so powerful and European countries so weak?  You also seem to forget how much money America loaned to the bigger European nations after the war.  Much of which,  Never was repaid I'm sure.

Actually no it wasn't. The WWI was already being won when the US showed up and they just really showed up and din't do anything critical, certainly they didn't turn the war around. In WWII the US didn't do SHIT. In fact the Germans were pulling troops from the east so they could slow the Russians down, because they knew the Russians would show no mercy if they reached Berlin before the US. Sad part? The Russians still got there first, talk about fail. All the US did in WWII was show up and die on a beach.

 

No one else had any industry or any development. No one had anythign elft. In fact it's kind of pathetic that a nation which got levelled by the Germans and took 20 million in casualties, was able to "compete" with a nation which was thoroughly unafected.

What European nations 'competed' with America toe to toe?  It wasn't until a full 30 years after WWII that Europe even started to make a push.  Even still,  not one of those countries individually has the production of the US. 

Communism and Russia?

 

Not a single factory was destroyed, no civilians died, no homeland attacks (Pearl Harbor was a millitary base and tha was it). So no, US's prosperity is based on the fact that no one else had anything, and that all the rich and smart people feld to the US. Thinkig otherwise is pure ignorance.

Pearl Harbor had civilians that died.   US's prosperity is purely based on an econmic system that works combined with a form of government that works.  A system that appeases the people from all walks of life.

In the only study of happiness, the US ranked rather low, especially compared vs countries in Europe. Though it was a metastudy yadda yadda.

 

As to your elected thing. Take my AIDS cure as an example. You aren't electing naything. Those people can raise the price as high as they wish. It would be the political equivalent of a Dictatorship. No thank you. I'd rather have the government take it. The job of every business is to do better than the competitors, and if opssible, drive them out of business. Yes prices may lower, but as soon as there is no alternative they more than make up for it.

 

Now that's just sad.  Why should some bureaucrat decide what's best for you and your life?   That's so weak.

I'd rather have no one take my money and I get everything in return for free. But if I had to choose, I want a plitician to take it than a businessman. And I hate government, I'm from an ex-Communist country...

 

 

 

All in all, post o' fail.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Slimebeast said:

Oh yeah, that's a big factor too. The lack of consumer interest in how much stuff cost. The consequence of an insurance based system.

How can it be changed?

 

I know how I would do it.

Get rid of health insurance all together. If you need healthcare, you pay for it. I am not against the government giving out extremely low interest guaranteed loans to pay for these services.

If you look at the healthcare industry where insurance is not a factor, like elective eye surgery, or plastic surgery, the services over the last 10 years have gotten so much better, and are drastically cheaper. You are also treated very well by the doctors and nurses. They are competing for your business, so they have to make sure they provide a better service at a better cost then the next guy.

Right now it’s crazy to ask someone to pay 50k for a bypass surgery. But if there was no insurance, that operation would probably cost around 3k, and be done with so much more comfort and efficiency. If you can’t afford it, take out a loan with the government, and pay it back though tax return deductions, or with a payment plan.

With this plan, everyone still gets healthcare, but the consumer now cares what things cost. It drives competition, and competition breeds excellence.



Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:

@Kasz You have people like that in the US, too. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Poverty levels, I believe, are roughly the same in both the US and the UK.

Watch this if you want to know just how badly some Americans have to live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD65UKgB6hU

It's a stream of a BBC documentary (you can't watch it on the BBC site because you're outside of the UK).

The poverty levels are the same... but that's not the same as quality of life.

Poverty as the way your talking about is "relative poverty" which is ranked within a country.  If you have a more socialistic way of spreading the wealth... your going to score higher on a "poverty" ranking.  The fact that the US and UK are so close more highlights the differences.

Also these people live well better then what Nintendomination was talking about.  Due to things such as food banks as mentioend.  The video is pretty sensationalistic honestly. 

For example... that house... lots of tracks of land have sold for a dollar even before the economic criss.

The Gini coeefcient barely rose under bush... at all.  Which is the distribution of wealth.

George W. Bush was the best president in regards to keeping the gap between the rich and poor down since WW2.

Like seriously... this is just a poorly done documentry.

 

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take the documentary over you on this one. What's more, that statistics I'm looking at also reflect relative poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom).

This documentary is talking about thousands upon thousands of Americans, NintendoMan is just one Brit.



Around the Network

Mafoo I already made my case on why business and healthcare should stay completely separate and Viper1's counter's were definitely not adequate. For the record after that I just said that it shouldn't be non-profit organizations but government hiring researchers.

Basically business and health care should never be taken together.

 

Viper1 said:
vlad321 said:
Viper1 said:
vlad321 said:
Viper1 said:
vlad321 said:
The biggest problem in the US is that people want to make money out of caring. I understand the doctors and drug makers to cover costs and such, but some drugs are ridiculously expensive, or equipment, or whatever. Then you have the insurance companies trying to milk you for as much as possible. If you have some problem, and you aren't getting healthcare from work then you will be stuck paying ridiculous amounts of money, which most people won't be able to afford.

If you have people trying to get more money out of patients, then the system is broken and ineffective and outright retarded. And does not capitalism basically say that you must make as much money as possible out of whatever you do? Adding 2 and 2, you get that a healthcare based on capitalism just does not fucking work.

Actually, our system isn't very capitalistic because there is no competition.  Despite mutiple insurance carriers, multiple hospital operators, multiple drug manufacturers....it's still limited in the way it's provided because costs are inflated artificially high. 

 

It's basically nullified the free market ability of the health care sector.    If it WERE free market capitalism then costs would be down dramatically.

 

 

 

The way I see it, the first step is at the drug and equipment manufacturers. They start seeling their drugs for ridiculous amounts over wht it costs to produce them, even with enough profit to cover development. Then you have thehospitals and doctor sector which throws on top even more crap, even though they could probably do things more cheaply and still operate at some benefit, ESPECIALLY if the suppliers lowered their costs. They still need to make money and even if they wanted to there is a floor because of the suppliers. They however, still aim to make money so they do inflate the cost more.

Then on top of that you have the insurance companies and the same happens with them.

From what I understand there isn't that much competition on the drug/equipment level, and if there is then they are not too bothered to lower costs given how it's already nice and high. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that they are businesses, and the goal of a business is to make more money when it should be healthcare first, then profit.

No doubt but but this is why it just needs reforming.   Federal policy has also caused a lot of the high prices and limited to no competition options.

Going to a universal healtcare won't change the actual costs.  They'll just be passed on to all tax payers directly.   The better idea is to get it back to free market capitalism and the whole pricing structure will fall back into acceptable levels.

 

 

The problem is with the business part. Because the moment companies see you depend on them too much they will instantly try to milk you as much as possible. What will happen under the capitalistic model owuld be something along this way:

Company A invents cure for AIDS first. There are no other cures known, the company patents the cure. The demand is high and there are no other copmetitors so they start charging a ridiculous amount, oen which only the top 5% and less can afford to pay. Any following company will probably get sued, due to the patent filed earlier. How many ways do you think people can take care of AIDS?

See what happens? It's kind of how Time Warner tried goign the way of content based billing instead of speed based. Thankfully they got pressured from the government and people threatened to switch and they changed that. What happens if there were no other companies to switch to and the government did as what you said and just chilled in the back?

If it's a private business, it won't work. Unless like the red corss or some non-profit organization comes up with the cure.

That's a rather dubious proposition though.  You can't base a health care system on something like that.

 

 

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

SamuelRSmith said:
Kasz216 said:
SamuelRSmith said:

@Kasz You have people like that in the US, too. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Poverty levels, I believe, are roughly the same in both the US and the UK.

Watch this if you want to know just how badly some Americans have to live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD65UKgB6hU

It's a stream of a BBC documentary (you can't watch it on the BBC site because you're outside of the UK).

The poverty levels are the same... but that's not the same as quality of life.

Poverty as the way your talking about is "relative poverty" which is ranked within a country.  If you have a more socialistic way of spreading the wealth... your going to score higher on a "poverty" ranking.  The fact that the US and UK are so close more highlights the differences.

Also these people live well better then what Nintendomination was talking about.  Due to things such as food banks as mentioend.  The video is pretty sensationalistic honestly. 

For example... that house... lots of tracks of land have sold for a dollar even before the economic criss.

The Gini coeefcient barely rose under bush... at all.  Which is the distribution of wealth.

George W. Bush was the best president in regards to keeping the gap between the rich and poor down since WW2.

Like seriously... this is just a poorly done documentry.

 

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take the documentary over you on this one. What's more, that statistics I'm looking at also reflect relative poverty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom).

This documentary is talking about thousands upon thousands of Americans, NintendoMan is just one Brit.

Look how relative poverty is calculated.  It's the Gini coeeficent.  Which is calculated within country.  So once again. your wrong... like I said.  States with higher sociliasm will score higher in such measures.

You often need to look at indexes such as "Consumer Goods ownership". to get a good idea as well.  Just along with quartile after tax salary and the prices of stuff... and just how people live.

Something else you can get for a dollar by the way in the US?  A buisness.

http://www.jonesbigasstruckrentalandstorage.com/



vlad321 said:

Mafoo I already made my case on why business and healthcare should stay completely separate and Viper1's counter's were definitely not adequate. For the record after that I just said that it shouldn't be non-profit organizations but government hiring researchers.

Basically business and health care should never be taken together.

 

How many “non profit”, or “not for profit” companies have invented new drugs, or created new technologies to advance healthcare?

How many prescriptions at Wal-Mart that can be filled for 4 dollars wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for business in healthcare?

The answer is all of them.



TheRealMafoo said:
vlad321 said:

Mafoo I already made my case on why business and healthcare should stay completely separate and Viper1's counter's were definitely not adequate. For the record after that I just said that it shouldn't be non-profit organizations but government hiring researchers.

Basically business and health care should never be taken together.

 

How many “non profit”, or “not for profit” companies have invented new drugs, or created new technologies to advance healthcare?

How many prescriptions at Wal-Mart that can be filled for 4 dollars wouldn’t even exist if it wasn’t for business in healthcare?

The answer is all of them.

 

How much stuff came out of NASA and the space program? Isn't NASA government funded?



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

To put it a way that is more understandable....

The US in general has higher Purchising Power Parity.

So... if someone in the US and UK made the same amount of money.

The person in the US could buy more... and this before counting out all the taxes taken out in the UK system.

The poor person is going to be better off in the US with a lower salary in just about every issue except healthcare.  Even with unemployment and government aid.

Some other info about the US Poor...

http://www.heritage.org/research/welfare/bg2064.cfm

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various gov­ernment reports:

  • Forty-three percent of all poor households actu­ally own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio..

  • The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

  • Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.

While the poor are generally well nourished, some poor families do experience temporary food shortages. But even this condition is relatively rare; 89 percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat.

One of the things the UK desperatly needs more of is these.

http://www.swindonfoodbank.co.uk/

The US has a lot of them and they work really well to feed the poor.