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Forums - General - If You Could Ask God ONE QUESTION

mmnin said:

@ Tyrannical


Actually, thinking back on it. A lot of educated people do use that argument, though they may not be educated in what they need to be in order to understand any weaknesses it might have. Typically someone thought it was witty and used it in their presence or a fellow skeptic passed along the thought and since they couldn't disprove it on the fly, they decided to use it. Then considering that most Christians, lower income protestants which make up the majority, are generally not of the highest education and probably would not be able to combat the phrase either, they then would think that it was a perfect way to make their point quickly. Usually I see these people, as Tombi seems to have done, throwing the statement to the world, even if it is just to one person, as if to rid it of all deities.

 

Bolded: But aren't I asking God a question? Therefore I'm assuming he exists... (for the purpose of the thread). If he didn't exist I wouldn't be able to ask him a question (well I could but I wouldn't get an answer

Edit: I don't believe the statement rids the world of all deities. Just all powerful ones. Even if he doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, he can't contradict logic.



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The great thing about god is no matter how illogical your explanations for him are you can always say "it's god, he doesn't follow our rules". You can pretty much explain everything (even why 1 + 1= 3) with that system of arguing.



tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

@ Tyrannical


Actually, thinking back on it. A lot of educated people do use that argument, though they may not be educated in what they need to be in order to understand any weaknesses it might have. Typically someone thought it was witty and used it in their presence or a fellow skeptic passed along the thought and since they couldn't disprove it on the fly, they decided to use it. Then considering that most Christians, lower income protestants which make up the majority, are generally not of the highest education and probably would not be able to combat the phrase either, they then would think that it was a perfect way to make their point quickly. Usually I see these people, as Tombi seems to have done, throwing the statement to the world, even if it is just to one person, as if to rid it of all deities.

 

Bolded: But aren't I asking God a question? Therefore I'm assuming he exists... (for the purpose of the thread). If he didn't exist I wouldn't be able to ask him a question (well I could but I wouldn't get an answer

Edit: I don't believe the statement rids the world of all deities. Just all powerful ones. Even if he doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, he can't contradict logic.

:p 

But the thing is He wouldn't contradict logic.  Just our logic which may be wrong in the first place.  There have been many upon many of theories, logical progressions, and studies that have been proven wrong after centuries of growth.  That is because we are always learning and expanding our understandings of the universe.  Of course, at each moment in our past, the best minds of the time thought that they were definitely right, even if they were later proven wrong.  So it would make sense that you would say here that what you are saying is definite logic regardless of if it actually is.  People do not like to be wrong and will stand by their statements sometimes long after they no longer agree with them.

 




mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

@ Tyrannical


Actually, thinking back on it. A lot of educated people do use that argument, though they may not be educated in what they need to be in order to understand any weaknesses it might have. Typically someone thought it was witty and used it in their presence or a fellow skeptic passed along the thought and since they couldn't disprove it on the fly, they decided to use it. Then considering that most Christians, lower income protestants which make up the majority, are generally not of the highest education and probably would not be able to combat the phrase either, they then would think that it was a perfect way to make their point quickly. Usually I see these people, as Tombi seems to have done, throwing the statement to the world, even if it is just to one person, as if to rid it of all deities.

 

Bolded: But aren't I asking God a question? Therefore I'm assuming he exists... (for the purpose of the thread). If he didn't exist I wouldn't be able to ask him a question (well I could but I wouldn't get an answer

Edit: I don't believe the statement rids the world of all deities. Just all powerful ones. Even if he doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, he can't contradict logic.

:p 

But the thing is He wouldn't contradict logic.  Just our logic which may be wrong in the first place.  There have been many upon many of theories, logical progressions, and studies that have been proven wrong after centuries of growth.  That is because we are always learning and expanding our understandings of the universe.  Of course, at each moment in our past, the best minds of the time thought that they were definitely right, even if they were later proven wrong.  So it would make sense that you would say here that what you are saying is definite logic regardless of if it actually is.  People do not like to be wrong and will stand by their statements sometimes long after they no longer agree with them.

 

Oh hell... never ever has our logic been wrong. Otherwise we would've never survived during the course of evolution. Never. There have been theories that have been proven wrong but they've been proven wrong by logic.

You are really taking the way of the least opposition here, don't you?

 



tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

:)  What we consider absolute is not the same as what an all powerful God would consider absolute. Where we have one instance in our existence, He would have many.

Do you believe in fate tombi or do you believe that we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make?

 

I don't believe in fate or destiny. I do believe we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make, as long as those choices don't harm others. The right for me to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

 

If you believe in choices, then that means that I can choice to type a K here.  Or I could have typed a D instead.  With every moment I can choose from an infinite amount of possibilities.  That means that while I might not make the given choice, at every point in time I have an infinite number of possibilities that exist and outcomes that could happen.  That was also the same for the point before that and the point before that all the way to minus infinity.  It will also be the same forward in time for every single event and every single motion and every single person and every single piece of existence.

That is...if we have choice.

Having said that, there exists a scenario where you stayed in bed all day today.  There is also a scenario for you deciding to quit your job last Tuesday at 8am.  There is also an existing possibility for you to decide to go to law school next year, or 5 yrs from now, or 10.  There is one where you are a movie star.  One where you were born years later.  One where you were still born.  One where your parents didn't exist.  My point is, that if we have choice, then there are an infinitely many number of possible timelines that spread out for eternity.  It would essentially make choice a 5th dimension after time. 

Now back to our conversation.  If God is all powerful, then He would have control of all of these parallel existences simultaneously, and for what we consider to be our "reality," He could make exist that He cannot pick up the rock.  Then in another "reality," which would not be an existence to us and thus would not make sense or be comprihendable to our available senses, He would be lifting the rock.  So He would be lifting the rock and not able to lift the rock at the exact same time.




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Louie said:
mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

@ Tyrannical


Actually, thinking back on it. A lot of educated people do use that argument, though they may not be educated in what they need to be in order to understand any weaknesses it might have. Typically someone thought it was witty and used it in their presence or a fellow skeptic passed along the thought and since they couldn't disprove it on the fly, they decided to use it. Then considering that most Christians, lower income protestants which make up the majority, are generally not of the highest education and probably would not be able to combat the phrase either, they then would think that it was a perfect way to make their point quickly. Usually I see these people, as Tombi seems to have done, throwing the statement to the world, even if it is just to one person, as if to rid it of all deities.

 

Bolded: But aren't I asking God a question? Therefore I'm assuming he exists... (for the purpose of the thread). If he didn't exist I wouldn't be able to ask him a question (well I could but I wouldn't get an answer

Edit: I don't believe the statement rids the world of all deities. Just all powerful ones. Even if he doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, he can't contradict logic.

:p 

But the thing is He wouldn't contradict logic.  Just our logic which may be wrong in the first place.  There have been many upon many of theories, logical progressions, and studies that have been proven wrong after centuries of growth.  That is because we are always learning and expanding our understandings of the universe.  Of course, at each moment in our past, the best minds of the time thought that they were definitely right, even if they were later proven wrong.  So it would make sense that you would say here that what you are saying is definite logic regardless of if it actually is.  People do not like to be wrong and will stand by their statements sometimes long after they no longer agree with them.

 

Oh hell... never ever has our logic been wrong. Otherwise we would've never survived during the course of evolution. Never. There have been theories that have been proven wrong but they've been proven wrong by logic.

You are really taking the way of the least opposition here, don't you?

 

Logic is a relative term based on how much knowledge, understanding, and exposure you have at the time.  It is what makes sense in the universe that you have made for yourself and your mind.  Certainly not all thoughts that we have found to be true since our race began are false, but they have never all been true.

 




mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

:)  What we consider absolute is not the same as what an all powerful God would consider absolute. Where we have one instance in our existence, He would have many.

Do you believe in fate tombi or do you believe that we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make?

 

I don't believe in fate or destiny. I do believe we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make, as long as those choices don't harm others. The right for me to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

 

If you believe in choices, then that means that I can choice to type a K here.  Or I could have typed a D instead.  With every moment I can choose from an infinite amount of possibilities.  That means that while I might not make the given choice, at every point in time I have an infinite number of possibilities that exist and outcomes that could happen.  That was also the same for the point before that and the point before that all the way to minus infinity.  It will also be the same forward in time for every single event and every single motion and every single person and every single piece of existence.

That is...if we have choice.

Having said that, there exists a scenario where you stayed in bed all day today.  There is also a scenario for you deciding to quit your job last Tuesday at 8am.  There is also a existing possibility for you to decide to go to law school next year, or 5 yrs from now, or 10.  There is one where you are a movie star.  One where you were born years later.  One where you were still born.  One where your parents didn't exist.  My point is, that if we have choice, then there are an infinitely many number of possible timelines that spread out for eternity.  It would essentially make choice a 5th dimension after time. 

Now back to our conversation.  If God is all powerful, then He would have control of all of these parallel existences simultaneously, and for what we consider to be our "reality," He could make exist that He cannot pick up the rock.  Then in another "reality," which would not be an existence to us and thus would not make sense or be comprihendable to our available senses, He would be lifting the rock.  So He would be lifting the rock and not able to lift the rock at the exact same time.

 

Again you are just taking the most easy approach here. You're just twisting things in whatever way you want and your reason for it is that god is allmighty. Great basis for a discussion, really.



Louie said:
mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

:)  What we consider absolute is not the same as what an all powerful God would consider absolute. Where we have one instance in our existence, He would have many.

Do you believe in fate tombi or do you believe that we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make?

 

I don't believe in fate or destiny. I do believe we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make, as long as those choices don't harm others. The right for me to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

 

If you believe in choices, then that means that I can choice to type a K here.  Or I could have typed a D instead.  With every moment I can choose from an infinite amount of possibilities.  That means that while I might not make the given choice, at every point in time I have an infinite number of possibilities that exist and outcomes that could happen.  That was also the same for the point before that and the point before that all the way to minus infinity.  It will also be the same forward in time for every single event and every single motion and every single person and every single piece of existence.

That is...if we have choice.

Having said that, there exists a scenario where you stayed in bed all day today.  There is also a scenario for you deciding to quit your job last Tuesday at 8am.  There is also a existing possibility for you to decide to go to law school next year, or 5 yrs from now, or 10.  There is one where you are a movie star.  One where you were born years later.  One where you were still born.  One where your parents didn't exist.  My point is, that if we have choice, then there are an infinitely many number of possible timelines that spread out for eternity.  It would essentially make choice a 5th dimension after time. 

Now back to our conversation.  If God is all powerful, then He would have control of all of these parallel existences simultaneously, and for what we consider to be our "reality," He could make exist that He cannot pick up the rock.  Then in another "reality," which would not be an existence to us and thus would not make sense or be comprihendable to our available senses, He would be lifting the rock.  So He would be lifting the rock and not able to lift the rock at the exact same time.

 

Again you are just taking the most easy approach here. You're just twisting things in whatever way you want and your reason for it is that god is allmighty. Great basis for a discussion, really.

lol.  Well that is the discussion, Louie.  Her statement was one that attempts to debunk if God is all powerful.  She said so herself.  That is to say, if God was all powerful, He should be able to make a rock so heavy that He could not lift it.  So if God was all powerful is the part of the statement that is NOT in question, the "logical" truth of this statement in this relative conversation is in whether or not the second half is true or false.  If it is false, then the statement is false, if it is true, then the statement is true.  You use the first to show the second.  It is an If -> Then statement.

 




mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

:)  What we consider absolute is not the same as what an all powerful God would consider absolute. Where we have one instance in our existence, He would have many.

Do you believe in fate tombi or do you believe that we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make?

 

I don't believe in fate or destiny. I do believe we make choices and have a right to choose whatever actions we make, as long as those choices don't harm others. The right for me to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

 

If you believe in choices, then that means that I can choice to type a K here.  Or I could have typed a D instead.  With every moment I can choose from an infinite amount of possibilities.  That means that while I might not make the given choice, at every point in time I have an infinite number of possibilities that exist and outcomes that could happen.  That was also the same for the point before that and the point before that all the way to minus infinity.  It will also be the same forward in time for every single event and every single motion and every single person and every single piece of existence.

That is...if we have choice.

Having said that, there exists a scenario where you stayed in bed all day today.  There is also a scenario for you deciding to quit your job last Tuesday at 8am.  There is also an existing possibility for you to decide to go to law school next year, or 5 yrs from now, or 10.  There is one where you are a movie star.  One where you were born years later.  One where you were still born.  One where your parents didn't exist.  My point is, that if we have choice, then there are an infinitely many number of possible timelines that spread out for eternity.  It would essentially make choice a 5th dimension after time. 

Now back to our conversation.  If God is all powerful, then He would have control of all of these parallel existences simultaneously, and for what we consider to be our "reality," He could make exist that He cannot pick up the rock.  Then in another "reality," which would not be an existence to us and thus would not make sense or be comprihendable to our available senses, He would be lifting the rock.  So He would be lifting the rock and not able to lift the rock at the exact same time.

So in one particular timeline he can't pick up the stone, and not be able to pick up the stone. So his all mightyness is just a wave function, which then breaks down when we observe it. Like a Quantum particle (or wavicle as I like to call them ).

 



mmnin said:
Louie said:
mmnin said:
tombi123 said:
mmnin said:

@ Tyrannical


Actually, thinking back on it. A lot of educated people do use that argument, though they may not be educated in what they need to be in order to understand any weaknesses it might have. Typically someone thought it was witty and used it in their presence or a fellow skeptic passed along the thought and since they couldn't disprove it on the fly, they decided to use it. Then considering that most Christians, lower income protestants which make up the majority, are generally not of the highest education and probably would not be able to combat the phrase either, they then would think that it was a perfect way to make their point quickly. Usually I see these people, as Tombi seems to have done, throwing the statement to the world, even if it is just to one person, as if to rid it of all deities.

 

Bolded: But aren't I asking God a question? Therefore I'm assuming he exists... (for the purpose of the thread). If he didn't exist I wouldn't be able to ask him a question (well I could but I wouldn't get an answer

Edit: I don't believe the statement rids the world of all deities. Just all powerful ones. Even if he doesn't have to obey the laws of physics, he can't contradict logic.

:p 

But the thing is He wouldn't contradict logic.  Just our logic which may be wrong in the first place.  There have been many upon many of theories, logical progressions, and studies that have been proven wrong after centuries of growth.  That is because we are always learning and expanding our understandings of the universe.  Of course, at each moment in our past, the best minds of the time thought that they were definitely right, even if they were later proven wrong.  So it would make sense that you would say here that what you are saying is definite logic regardless of if it actually is.  People do not like to be wrong and will stand by their statements sometimes long after they no longer agree with them.

 

Oh hell... never ever has our logic been wrong. Otherwise we would've never survived during the course of evolution. Never. There have been theories that have been proven wrong but they've been proven wrong by logic.

You are really taking the way of the least opposition here, don't you?

 

Logic is a relative term based on how much knowledge, understanding, and exposure you have at the time.  It is what makes sense in the universe that you have made for yourself and your mind.  Certainly not all thoughts that we have found to be true since our race began are false, but they have never all been true.

 

 

Oh my... no it isn't. The theories people had in the past just weren't logical. They were justified by gods, spirits, etc. They did the same you are doing now: Just taking god to fill the illogical gaps.