fmc83 said:
bdbdbd said: @fmc83: Considering historical things, Bavaria was an independent country until 1870 (it was forced to join the German Empire), when it was the 3rd biggest german speaking country at the time (after Prussia and Austria), which basically would justify Bavaria be seen as a country in the same way as Scotland.
Well, historically the "forced" alliances (notice that despite parlament making decisions, the people may not agree) haven't held, peacefully even less (Soviet Union, Yugoslavia as the latest most famous examples). Basically there has been only two ways to keep the alliance alive; fight internal conflicts or fight outsiders. Roman and british empires fought both, Soviets fought both, China has had large number of revolutions and has been even conquered sometimes. USA have held surprisingly well, but that was due to indepence seeking nationalists losing the civil war and it has been "fighting" a common "enemy" ever since (and it doesn't have similar multinational-multicultural split as EU for example). The need for political or armed forces superpower is definaly debatable and in any case, it could be achieved by contracts between the countries. |
The reference to Bavaria was more in a sarcastic way and to show how hard it is to give the definition of a country. Bavaria actually was made a separate kingdom by Napoleon and has been part of a very loose German Reich long before that and as well during its existence as a kingdom. So it wasn't really forced into this, neither does anyone really want to gain independence. It's too complicated to describe the whole affair, as it would take ages here. I study history (ancient, medievil and new) and english (literature+ linguistics+ culture) so I actually know quite a lot about all that stuff. And I've been active in a political party since over 9 years now.
The theory with attacking the outsiders is definitely a good one. I would add to the Romans, that they absorbed others cultures quite succesful (the gods i.e.). The US held well, because they replaced the 19th century classical national identity with the American dream and the "ex pluribus unum".
The Falkland war happened definitely because of the reasons you described, but why did Britain want to keep that islands full of sheep anyway???
And that's where I would answer: resources and special antarctica rights
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Considering the preassure from Prussia and Austria, Bavaria had very little options. It already had evaded from being taken over with playing politics. The German Empire was propably the best and the most peaceful way to keep the right to decide from their own things.
And by forced, i don't necessarily mean anything like pointing a gun to someones head, but a situation where you still have the possibility to choose from bad option and worse option, and also the parlament deciding against what the people would want to (a thing that can also be seen with the uprise of populistic right wing parties in EU).
The romans were kind of forced to absorb different cultures, since the empire grew "beyond its limits" and "Rome" became the minority in the empire where people were allowed to travel pretty freely. Also, the absorbing took centuries, not decades or even years. One of the key things in successfully keeping the empire together, was the constant warware, which took resources from the conquered regions (which were very weak after getting conquered in any case), so that they usually couldn't build up an army to fight Rome to get out of it. Also the psycholical view of "us and them", is the best (only?) way to create unity between people, just what the USA is using all the time with their politics.
US could replace the classical national identity because there never was one in the first place. Everyone had their roots elsewhere and culturally the country was so mixed bag all around, that the people really didn't feel like being a part of anything other than the land they owned. And still, they went into civil war.
Special Antarctica rights is a bad reason because nobody has them. Resources nearby sound more plausible, but in reality, i would bet a good strategic location. Not wanting to give up territories would be a good reason if UK hadn't gotten rid of most of their colonies (and even then it still is), but think about if UK had gotten a beating from Argentina or given up without a fight, what that had done to Thatchers career.
@Tyrannical: Now would be a good time, since british pound is pretty low at the moment.
And you don't seem to get the direction where EU is heading; it's going towards what USA is.
Why hadn't he said it? It's freedom of speech.