TheTruthProphet said: Actually the USA makes up 25% of the global economy alone. Nobody else come close in size or scope. Asian manufacturers and Europeans need the Ameican consumer to buy their goods and keep their economies going.

 

The percentage of the GDP of the US is quite accurate, but that nobody else comes close is false. Actually the EU is ahead! That manufacturers need American comsumers is right, but so it's the other way round.

 

Short overview (I know it's just wikipedia, but that'll do it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

The EU is ahead in every list. The worldbank list spares the UK, because they're not part of the Euro-Currency-Zone.

SamuelRSmith said: mrstickball said: Government should always be questioned. That's why I love the United States. We can take up arms at any time against our government if we so choose.   As can any Liberal Democracy. That's not the kind of thing that needs to be written in a constitution.

Not every liberal democracy actually affords it's citizens the ability to revolt if needed. What would Europeans revolt against a tyrannical government with? Rubber band guns and foul language?

On another note, as others have said, free trade creates parity. It's to be expected if you lower trade barriers with neighbors. Look no further than NAFTA and the development of the Chinese economy when we began to trade with them more...Imagine if every government had universal free trade with them.

@fmc - why are you comparing the dysfunctional EU to the global superpower that is the USA?

EU military spending and power is weak as they rely on the US to give them security. Name 1 country in EU that has an aircracft carrier besides england

Europeans don't have the concept of freedom and independence that Americans have. Dictatorship whether by socialism, communism, or a monarchy is their preferred government.

SamuelRSmith said: bdbdbd said: Yes. And even more if (when) the Lisbon treaty gets approval.  Well, the Lisbon treaty brings in Intiatives, which makes the EU more democratic (basically, if one million people get behind an idea they have to force the EC and EP to look into it). It will also fully include each nations' parliament officially into the constitution. The charter on human rights will also give the Convention of Human Rights some legal strength. Plus many other things that improve democracy across the board. tbh, I get a little fed up with all this euro-skeptism bullshit. Especially those that say "I'm fed up with all the decisions made in Brussels". News flash: Brussels holds the European Commission, the Civil Servants, essentially, they just do all of the donkey work that they receive from the Council of Ministers - which, of course, includes the Governments from all of the nations. (This wasn't aimed at you, bdbdbd, but mainly at the British Euroskeptics).

There are some good things in the Lisbon treaty, but it changes the whole nature of EU completely. Currently EU is a bunch of contracts between a number of countries, after Lisbon treaty it's one country with number of states, in similar fashion with Germany, USA, Russia and China. The need for EU "to become more democratic" comes from the new EU countries (namely Poland) that holds the same power as France, UK or Italy and can in reality take down things in EU parlament (and Turkey sometime in the future, that's going to pass Germany in population).
Lisbon treaty would take EU as more democratic only in the scheme of Lisbon treaty. Considering the current scheme, more democratic direction would be each country to have equal number of votes in the parlament. The current system is designed in a way that once something fits for "everyone", it's legit (and on top of that, it needs approval in each countrys parlament in order to take effect in the country in question) and after Lisbon treaty, something would be legit after the majority approves it (without the need of approval in individual countries parlaments).
Basically the idea is to lock the power to (namely) Germany, France, UK and Italy.

On top of that, the Lisbon treaty also grants death sentences for political reasons (not for murderers or rapists) and rioting/protests. This could be good thing to prevent what have happened in France and maybe get Malmö back in track, but it also prevents nationality uprising and justifies the use of military force to prevent someone get out of EU.

Tyrannical said: Europeans don't have the concept of freedom and independence that Americans have. Dictatorship whether by socialism, communism, or a monarchy is their preferred government.

Lol.

That is hilarious because every single western European country has a freely and fairly elected government and all but a couple (Belarus and Kazakhstan) of eastern nations do. Dictatorship hardly even exists in Europe any more.

@TheTruthProphet: That's because in the sense of trading the two are comparable; ie. both are similar economic zones.

As for the aircraft carriers, first you made an exception that makes the comparision pretty moot, secondly, only countries that are "island" countries/have huge coastal line have advantage from the carriers and thirdly, nukes are more efficient.

@Tyrannical: Considering that you compare USA, where the president holds political power, to european countries, where the president or king/queen hold very little to none political power. All the power is held by parlament, which is lead by prime minister that gets changed quickly if the parlament isn't happy with the government.

Also, define "freedom", since so far european countries are more liberal in terms of human rights than USA is.

Europeans don't have a sense of freedom like the U.S? Oh fuck off.

Stop trying to make out the U.S as a great country. It isn't.

TheTruthProphet said: @fmc - why are you comparing the dysfunctional EU to the global superpower that is the USA? EU military spending and power is weak as they rely on the US to give them security. Name 1 country in EU that has an aircracft carrier besides england

Get your facts straight.

England is not a country, it is a constituent state of the United Kingdom and therefore does not have its own military.

The British Navy has aircraft carriers, as does the French.

This thread is great, one PResident of the EU speaks out in an anti-EU tone and somehow, the EU is being compared to USA at how much worse we are off.../when we are obviously not. :P

I understand this president's point, there are some parts of the EU that seem a bit odd but local governments still hold most power and EU seems to mainly regulate trade to, from and between the EU countries. I'm not a supporter for it in the strong sense of it all, I want the UK to remain indepedent to as much as it can but there are many benefits I am very for, trade for one but mainly and most, support from our UK farmers. It comes from the EU and mainly from the EU. Without it many might have gone under already.

Remember people, no farming = no food = no Britain.