I was describing how abortion is protected by the "right" of privacy for the mother. Which is ridiculous. We all have rights, and can even argue that there are rights that every human being is allowed to have. Living or having a chance to live is the biggest one.

STD's was just an example. If you do something in this world without thinking clearly, you have a good chance of having to pay for it. But too much stuff on credit: then you will have to deal with it. Have unprotected sex: you can get an STD or get pregnant. Especially with pregnancy, there are so many ways to prevent it on both sides. The fact that an STD can be treated doesn't downplay that an abortion is a do-over with its own extreme consequence, taking away a chance at life. The fact the mother can do all of those things also doesn't downplay the act she is committing.

What have I done to be responsible? I've used condoms and spermicide and had my partners be on the pill, and I pull out. I cannot take responsibility for another person, so I will prevent me having to do so. Those put up for adoption, or live in poor neighborhoods, don't deserve that. They deserve a better life, but at least they have life. That's more than you can say for the millions of abortions that happen that prevent it.

I dont think I'm better than any other person, or at least I don't think I do. And its kind of hypocritical to call me out on responsibility if you don't do those things yourself. No person is perfect and I never said I was. I'm debating my morals on the subject. I clearly feel strongly about it, because like I said, it's horrific to me that in this day and age that we cannot find a better solution to abortions. You disagree clearly, and go ahead, its your opinion. I don't expect to change your mind, but at least I'm not debating like every other Pro-Lifer on a religious background, there are serious moral and political undertones that are ignored on the subject.

pro life unless it will take away from the mothers health/mental or physical


the woman's right to choice extends to two things

one to have or not have sex

to use or not use a condom


if you chose to have sex fine, if you chose to have sex and not use a condom, fine again

if you get preg from those choices you must now live with the consequences and have the babe---you don't have to keep it there is always adoption



*here is a note if a woman gets rapes and b/c of that gets preg she should have the right to decide b/c up to that point she has had no choice*

1. How in any way is animal experimentation analagous to abortion?  Humans and animals are different things and have different rights (animals don't have many in our society, rightly).  Animal experimentation has brought about great benefits for mankind.  Your position is the idiot PETA position.

2. Your second line of thought (many pro-life people don't care about world hunger or other aspects of human life) is just patently false.  I don't know where you get this warped view, but I'd wager it is likely from a common extreme-left strawman argument of if you don't support more government control (to prevent hunger and poverty, of course) you "don't care."  This is a lame argument at best.

Every time you take a step you kill something.  Does life not matter to you?  Are you worse than a baby-killing abortionist?

These exceptions bascially make your position pro-abortion.  Every woman has mental anguish if they are unhappy at being pregnant, and every woman who carries the pregnancy any length experiences physical pain (sickness and worse).  If you have the exceptions you describe, being otherwise pro-life is meaningless.

here let me clarify--but i should not have had to if you had read my whole post

Alright, I will give you that, you aren't dragging this into a religious debate and are willing to argue it on the merits.

My main point is the abortion debate masks a much larger problem, that there are a ton of children out there who aren't being taken care of, not just in this country, but across the world.  I honestly don't see how people can be so worried about unborn babies but aren't proactive about helping out all the people who are suffering right now.  If everyone in the world had something to eat tonight, then I would have no problem outlawing abortion.  But that's not reality.  And outlawing abortion isn't going to make the problem any better.  If anything, it will make more people suffer.

I'm all for people taking responsibility for their actions.  But do you think that people who get an abortion just forget about it?  No, that is a decision they have to live with for the rest of their life.  They have to take responsibility for what they did everyday for how it weighs on their conscious.  Its not like you get off scot free once you have an abortion.  For many people it can be traumatic later on in life.  That's a decision they have to make for themselves.

Responsibility isn't about taking away choices from people.  Isn't it irresponsible to think that you can make a choice for someone else better than they can?  I don't tell you whether or not to be a good person or how to treat your family or your wife.  That's not my responsibility.  It is our responsibility as a nation to honor the choices are citizens make even if those choices are different than our own as long as they are acting within the law.

You know what.  A person doesn't have to help out someone else under our law if they are being robbed or if they have been injured.  That is because their is another right at issue and we could expose a person who has done nothing "wrong" to criminal prosecution for simply not doing anything.  That is a right I am willing to protect even if I don't agree with the choice a person makes.  Its not the government's job to tell people to be morally responsible.  When did the government become our parent?  Its irresponsible to expect the government to do what a society should do, educate its people about the consequences of their actions.  I don't want the government telling me how to live my life or telling others how to live their lives when it comes to my personal freedoms that don't affect other people's lives.

This makes absolutely no sense. I'm not knocking your stance, just wondering how you think it's okay to eliminate an innocent fetus, that if left to its own devices, would in all likelihood be born but not okay to put someone like Charles Manson to death for crimes he admitted to doing without showing a lick of remorse for committing them.

On the other hand, I don't understand being pro-life and pro death penalty, either.

I'm personally sort of neutral on the death penalty issue, so I don't really have a vested interest in the debate, but the pro-choice/anti-death penalty position makes sense to me if you approach it from a civil liberties perspective. 

In many ways, our rights are more important than our lives are.  I mean you hear people babble on about how people fought and died for our way of life, but it really is true if you think about it.  The people who moved over to this country originally abandoned their way of life and their country so they could live how they wanted to live.  Many of them died in the process.  We've waged wars over our way of life.  That was what the Revolutionary War was. Its consistent with me that you value a person's rights based on our Constitution more than life itself at times.  That's what our country is based on.  Give me liberty or give me death.

The pro-life and pro-death penalty position I can't really rationalize from the same perspective as the argument is typically religious in nature.  If you were Jewish it would make more sense as the Jewish God is a more vengeful guy.  I wouldn't really see a contradiction to the same degree as I would otherwise.  But as a Christian its pretty inconsistent if you are rationalizing your position based on Christianity.

I can understand that. They're also separate if you feel a fetus isn't life yet, though that's pretty shaky ground to stand on because there is no quantifiable way to prove it one way or the other. At that point, you're just making the same, though inverted, claim as the religious pro-lifers.

Personally, I don't have much of an opinion on capital punishment. I believe, like abortion, it should be up to the individual states to decide.