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Forums - General Discussion - Israel Bombs UN Run School in Gaza

superchunk on 06 January 2009
Esmoreit said:

Hamas is not seen as a player in an international level. In fact, I believe that the organization was blacklisted by the UN and most western countries. The government does not recieve any aid whatsoever and I believe that the Palestinians are only helped through direct means, like the school this topic is about.

Why Israel is scrutanized is because of one reason, by me at least: they have the means to do it differently. I believe the Mossad is one of the best special forces in the world... they have one of the best military's in the world period. Why would they use 2000 pound bombs if they could very well send in a sniper team of the Mossad? They might even take prisoners thus not turn victims into marters.

The situation is way to fucked up now with respect to civilian deaths and atrocities. We mostly get the news viewed from the Palestine side. today... I saw a group of Israeli's simply executing a man they had strip-searched and naked on the ground already. I saw women being dragged across the ground for no apparant reason. Soldiers taking pictures with their kills... all acts that are punishable by any international court.

 

Exactly. All we hear is the US/Israeli point of view. We almost never hear about the numerous atrocities that happen almost daily in Gaza and WB that fuel Hamas' support.

As I said over and over agian in other threads, Hamas is a direct result of Israel's own actions. They abide by international laws and end the occupation, Hamas is doomed.

 



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superchunk on 06 January 2009
appolose said:
superchunk said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

Exactly what I argued with Comrade about fruitlessly yesterday.

 

So what's Israel supposed to do?  Wait for the suicide bombing and rocket supplies to run out?  They had to invade.

 

 

Read my very exhaustive posts from yesterday to comrade for a full description.

Also to summarize, "Hamas is a direct result of Israel's own actions. They abide by international laws and end the occupation, Hamas is doomed."



PS360ForTheWin on 06 January 2009
appolose said:
superchunk said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

Exactly what I argued with Comrade about fruitlessly yesterday.

 

So what's Israel supposed to do?  Wait for the suicide bombing and rocket supplies to run out?  They had to invade.

 

stop ignoring the facts you dont like, i said hamas must be disarmed (by the UN if neccesary) i did not say that hamas should be allowed to attack Israel unprovoked for no reason, nor would i, also Israel did not have to invade, they had to recognize the palestinian state then call in the UN to disarm hamas

 



appolose on 06 January 2009
Esmoreit said:
appolose said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

 

Then why has Israel been the one left to defend itself?  From what I've been seeing (perhaps inaccurately), a good bit of the U.N. nations are calling on Israel to stop this.  Have they done the same with the Hamas?  If so, it obviously hasn't done anything, and one would think a sdifferent tactic would be employed, considering the amount of outrage this particualr issue has raised. 

And what good would Israel's recognition of Palestine do?  Doesn't the Hamas want to wipe out Israel?

Hamas is not seen as a player in an international level. In fact, I believe that the organization was blacklisted by the UN and most western countries. The government does not recieve any aid whatsoever and I believe that the Palestinians are only helped through direct means, like the school this topic is about.

Why Israel is scrutanized is because of one reason, by me at least: they have the means to do it differently. I believe the Mossad is one of the best special forces in the world... they have one of the best military's in the world period. Why would they use 2000 pound bombs if they could very well send in a sniper team of the Mossad? They might even take prisoners thus not turn victims into marters.

The situation is way to fucked up now with respect to civilian deaths and atrocities. We mostly get the news viewed from the Palestine side. today... I saw a group of Israeli's simply executing a man they had strip-searched and naked on the ground already. I saw women being dragged across the ground for no apparant reason. Soldiers taking pictures with their kills... all acts that are punishable by any international court.

 

They have got to be getting support from somewhere else then.  Perhaps from surrounding sentimental countries, which, in that case, the U.N. needs to recognize that simply cutting off support by theirown hand isn't helping.

While I'm not too familiar with Israel's military, I don't think it could be that easy.  How could a group of snipers easily infiltrate a densely populated area, of which probably holds many Hamas-sentimental people, for example?  I'm sure Israel would have chosen a less invasive route (much less, compared to this) if they could have, but is it really that easy?

Every army has its share of evil soldiers.  I think we've all heard of the U.S.'s army prison guard scandal.  But are these instances (such as what you gave) wholly representative of Israel's army?

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
PS360ForTheWin on 06 January 2009
appolose said:
Esmoreit said:
appolose said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

 

Then why has Israel been the one left to defend itself?  From what I've been seeing (perhaps inaccurately), a good bit of the U.N. nations are calling on Israel to stop this.  Have they done the same with the Hamas?  If so, it obviously hasn't done anything, and one would think a sdifferent tactic would be employed, considering the amount of outrage this particualr issue has raised. 

And what good would Israel's recognition of Palestine do?  Doesn't the Hamas want to wipe out Israel?

Hamas is not seen as a player in an international level. In fact, I believe that the organization was blacklisted by the UN and most western countries. The government does not recieve any aid whatsoever and I believe that the Palestinians are only helped through direct means, like the school this topic is about.

Why Israel is scrutanized is because of one reason, by me at least: they have the means to do it differently. I believe the Mossad is one of the best special forces in the world... they have one of the best military's in the world period. Why would they use 2000 pound bombs if they could very well send in a sniper team of the Mossad? They might even take prisoners thus not turn victims into marters.

The situation is way to fucked up now with respect to civilian deaths and atrocities. We mostly get the news viewed from the Palestine side. today... I saw a group of Israeli's simply executing a man they had strip-searched and naked on the ground already. I saw women being dragged across the ground for no apparant reason. Soldiers taking pictures with their kills... all acts that are punishable by any international court.

 

They have got to be getting support from somewhere else then.  Perhaps from surrounding sentimental countries, which, in that case, the U.N. needs to recognize that simply cutting off support by theirown hand isn't helping.

While I'm not too familiar with Israel's military, I don't think it could be that easy.  How could a group of snipers easily infiltrate a densely populated area, of which probably holds many Hamas-sentimental people, for example?  I'm sure Israel would have chosen a less invasive route (much less, compared to this) if they could have, but is it really that easy?

Every army has its share of evil soldiers.  I think we've all heard of the U.S.'s army prison guard scandal.  But are these instances (such as what you gave) wholly representative of Israel's army?

 

actually countries like Israel, Russia, UK and the US have very good special forces, that could quite easily do that, infact me and my friend once spent an afternoon discussing how the SAS could have taken out Saddam Hussein without any need of a war.

any bad soldiers in an army should be immediatly dissmissed and charged in a court of law like everyone else is.

 



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appolose on 06 January 2009
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
superchunk said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

Exactly what I argued with Comrade about fruitlessly yesterday.

 

So what's Israel supposed to do?  Wait for the suicide bombing and rocket supplies to run out?  They had to invade.

 

stop ignoring the facts you dont like, i said hamas must be disarmed (by the UN if neccesary) i did not say that hamas should be allowed to attack Israel unprovoked for no reason, nor would i, also Israel did not have to invade, they had to recognize the palestinian state then call in the UN to disarm hamas

 

They should have done that years ago, then, if it's so easily done (disarm them), with or without Israel's recognition (I do not know why that is needed).

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
PS360ForTheWin on 06 January 2009
appolose said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
superchunk said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
As much as I am for not murdering children, I feel I must ask: has this sort of outrage been raised against the organizations (Hamas?) responsible for the hundreds of deaths Israel has sustained from suicide and car bombers and rocket strikes?
I'm not saying this justifies bombing a school, but I am curious as to why Israel is being so scrutinized for any negative effects of this campaign, effects which it has enduring for years now.

 

of course that has been pointed out, why do you think hamas are hated around the world, the problem is Israel continues to enter gaza and when they do the palestinians want to defend themselves and so they turn to hamas, to break that cycle Israel must recognize a Palestinian state and Hamas must disarm

Exactly what I argued with Comrade about fruitlessly yesterday.

 

So what's Israel supposed to do?  Wait for the suicide bombing and rocket supplies to run out?  They had to invade.

 

stop ignoring the facts you dont like, i said hamas must be disarmed (by the UN if neccesary) i did not say that hamas should be allowed to attack Israel unprovoked for no reason, nor would i, also Israel did not have to invade, they had to recognize the palestinian state then call in the UN to disarm hamas

 

They should have done that years ago, then, if it's so easily done (disarm them), with or without Israel's recognition (I do not know why that is needed).

 

the UN have probably tried to do this before, but as long as Israel refuses to recognize a palestinian state, more hamas members will replace the ones they kill or arrest (palestinians turn to hamas because they feel oppressed and antagonised by Israel)

 



appolose on 06 January 2009
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:

They have got to be getting support from somewhere else then.  Perhaps from surrounding sentimental countries, which, in that case, the U.N. needs to recognize that simply cutting off support by theirown hand isn't helping.

While I'm not too familiar with Israel's military, I don't think it could be that easy.  How could a group of snipers easily infiltrate a densely populated area, of which probably holds many Hamas-sentimental people, for example?  I'm sure Israel would have chosen a less invasive route (much less, compared to this) if they could have, but is it really that easy?

Every army has its share of evil soldiers.  I think we've all heard of the U.S.'s army prison guard scandal.  But are these instances (such as what you gave) wholly representative of Israel's army?

 

actually countries like Israel, Russia, UK and the US have very good special forces, that could quite easily do that, infact me and my friend once spent an afternoon discussing how the SAS could have taken out Saddam Hussein without any need of a war.

any bad soldiers in an army should be immediatly dissmissed and charged in a court of law like everyone else is.

 

 

Could they?  How do we know that (assuming you or your friend are not highly aware of can be done military-wise)?  And if so, why haven't any of these countries done that?

But I certainly agree this soldiers should not go unpunished; I'm just saying that they themselves do not condemn the whole army.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
PS360ForTheWin on 06 January 2009
appolose said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:

They have got to be getting support from somewhere else then.  Perhaps from surrounding sentimental countries, which, in that case, the U.N. needs to recognize that simply cutting off support by theirown hand isn't helping.

While I'm not too familiar with Israel's military, I don't think it could be that easy.  How could a group of snipers easily infiltrate a densely populated area, of which probably holds many Hamas-sentimental people, for example?  I'm sure Israel would have chosen a less invasive route (much less, compared to this) if they could have, but is it really that easy?

Every army has its share of evil soldiers.  I think we've all heard of the U.S.'s army prison guard scandal.  But are these instances (such as what you gave) wholly representative of Israel's army?

 

actually countries like Israel, Russia, UK and the US have very good special forces, that could quite easily do that, infact me and my friend once spent an afternoon discussing how the SAS could have taken out Saddam Hussein without any need of a war.

any bad soldiers in an army should be immediatly dissmissed and charged in a court of law like everyone else is.

 

 

Could they?  How do we know that (assuming you or your friend are not highly aware of can be done military-wise)?  And if so, why haven't any of these countries done that?

i think they could, but they dont because Israel knows that if it does that it has to then leave gaza and recognize a palestinian state which so far they have flatley refused to do, which is why hamas is so powerfull in the first place

edit update: i agree that the Israeli army should not be judged by the actions of a few idiots



appolose on 06 January 2009
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:
PS360ForTheWin said:
appolose said:

They have got to be getting support from somewhere else then.  Perhaps from surrounding sentimental countries, which, in that case, the U.N. needs to recognize that simply cutting off support by theirown hand isn't helping.

While I'm not too familiar with Israel's military, I don't think it could be that easy.  How could a group of snipers easily infiltrate a densely populated area, of which probably holds many Hamas-sentimental people, for example?  I'm sure Israel would have chosen a less invasive route (much less, compared to this) if they could have, but is it really that easy?

Every army has its share of evil soldiers.  I think we've all heard of the U.S.'s army prison guard scandal.  But are these instances (such as what you gave) wholly representative of Israel's army?

 

actually countries like Israel, Russia, UK and the US have very good special forces, that could quite easily do that, infact me and my friend once spent an afternoon discussing how the SAS could have taken out Saddam Hussein without any need of a war.

any bad soldiers in an army should be immediatly dissmissed and charged in a court of law like everyone else is.

 

 

Could they?  How do we know that (assuming you or your friend are not highly aware of can be done military-wise)?  And if so, why haven't any of these countries done that?

i think they could, but they dont because Israel knows that if it does that it has to then leave gaza and recognize a palestinian state which so far they have flatley refused to do, which is why hamas is so powerfull in the first place

edit update: i agree that the Israeli army should not be judged by the actions of a few idiots

I think we may need  a different thread for this; we'd have to discuss Israel's reasons and intentions about Gaza in general, and argue about their values of their own civilians vs. Gaza occupation.

In any event, I guess we now know each other's positions.

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz