@ Squilliam

No you can't, often if you try to be innovative this poses major challenges. The PS3 isn't that hard to develop for at all, of course with more advanced tech there are more things you could do, like a Coleco Vision is much more easily to max out than a supercomputer games console. For example if a console can't handle HDR, you simply don't have to worry about this, if you only have 16 colors to work with, you only draw your graphics in 16 colors and so on.

The real problem is legacy game engines, they were designed to work in certain ways which aren't very well geared towards the future. Building new modern game engine from scratch takes time, like some currently used game engines have been under development for over a decade.

Some modern GPUs and CPUs are now taking a similar roadmap as technology found in the Cell processor. The PS3 is IMO an excellent stepping stone for games developers, they will have fewer problems in the future when those solutions hit the market.

MikeB said: @ Squilliam Yeah we could have had Killzone 2 level performance from the PS3 about a year and a half ago I bet. No you can't, often if you try to be innovative this poses major challenges. The PS3 isn't that hard to develop for at all, of course with more advanced tech there are more things you could do, like a Coleco Vision is much more easily to max out than a supercomputer games console. For example if a console can't handle HDR, you simply don't have to worry about this, if you only have 16 colors to work with, you only draw your graphics in 16 colors and so on. The real problem is legacy game engines, they were designed to work in certain ways which aren't very well geared towards the future. Building new modern game engine from scratch takes time, like some currently used game engines have been under development for over a decade. Some modern GPUs and CPUs are now taking a similar roadmap as technology found in the Cell processor. The PS3 is IMO an excellent stepping stone for games developers, they will have fewer problems in the future when those solutions hit the market.

Are you implying that a company which has far more experience with multi-many core programming, with experience with computer chips ranging from your standard desktop X86's to server class CPUs (Of which the Cell is one), which has divisions dedicated to creating some of the best tools in the industry that managed to keep an "inferior" piece of hardware on parity. Either way you'll have to back down on one of the positions you keep.

If you back down on the Xbox 360 vs PS3 superiority you acknowledge that they are a lot more similar in real world performance than you have implied in the past or you acknowledge than Microsoft is a vastly superior tools developer which would have made the PS3 perform much better, faster. Either way one of those positions has to go because they are at complete odds with each other.

 

@ Squilliam

I think I know the question, but you failed to formulate one.

The tools to take full advantage of the PS3 architecture are there, now the game engines need to be further adapted to take full advantage.

In general developers know what needs to be done, it's just a lot of work to do. Legacy game engines are advancing step by step, moving systems over from the PPE to the SPEs. In the end nearly everything should run on the Cell's SPEs, the PPE should be mainly used for what it is designed for in the PS3 (managing the SPEs) and likewise with regard to the RSX (as the SPEs are far more powerful and flexible than the RSX with certain tasks). Other important considerations relate for instance to optimising game engines to take advantage of Blu-Ray/harddrive streaming.

If you have seen engine code, you will understand it's like bookworks of complex programming. Understanding the differences between the PPE and SPEs, you will understand there's a lot of legacy code to be adapted (but when adapted this code could run more efficiently on the PPE and other processors as well, but if not adapted it will not run on the SPEs at all).

Pfffft.

What a load of BS...

Haven't you heard?? "T3h P53 15 d00m3d!!"

MikeB said: @ Squilliam Are you implying that a company which has far more experience with multi-many core programming, with experience with computer chips ranging from your standard desktop X86's to server class CPUs (Of which the Cell is one), which has divisions dedicated to creating some of the best tools in the industry that managed to keep an "inferior" piece of hardware on parity. I think I know the question, but you failed to formulate one. The tools to take full advantage of the PS3 architecture are there, now the game engines need to be further adapted to take full advantage. In general developers know what needs to be done, it's just a lot of work to do. Legacy game engines are advancing step by step, moving systems over from the PPE to the SPEs. In the end nearly everything should run on the Cell's SPEs, the PPE should be mainly used for what it is designed for in the PS3 (managing the SPEs) and likewise with regard to the RSX (as the SPEs are far more powerful and flexible than the RSX with certain tasks). Other important considerations relate for instance to optimising game engines to take advantage of Blu-Ray/harddrive streaming. If you have seen engine code, you will understand it's like bookworks of complex programming. Understanding the differences between the PPE and SPEs, you will understand there's a lot of legacy code to be adapted (but when adapted this code could run more efficiently on the PPE and other processors as well, but if not adapted it will not run on the SPEs at all).

 

Don't take it on the hardware or the software, blame the middleware instead (?)

Even if that last action denial wasn't completely made up, who is going to provide the long waited middleware ? Typical middleware fabricants wouldn't be interested, and haven't announced any effort in that direction. Sony shound be interested and hasn't announced any effort itself. Lame argument ideed...

Do you remember the E-motion engine ? It was the exact same arguments as with the Cell... Sony tried to repeat history but you must have been too busy building engine codes to notice ; )

ALL OF THIS ARGUING IS SOOOOOOOOOOO POINTLESS!!!!!!!!!

sony built the ps3 to be around for about 10 years. The ps3 will be around that long because it is quality hardware that has a lot of potential and for another big reason that its complementary products, HDTV's, will have the benchmark of 1080p for the for-see-able future. If tv's aren't supporting higher resolutions, and game developers can develop games at 60 frames per second on the current hardware, the hardware will be around for a while.

Also for everyone who tries to say Sony made a console not built well for gaming, I really don't believe Sony employed dumbas* engineers and just dropped the ball when they designed their console. It is proven it has the technical prowess to do amazing things, honestly, just try to deny Killzone 2 and then its easy to know you're not here for a logical discussion. KZ2 is just the tip of the iceberg too, the consoles only been out for 2 friggin' years!

I don't know my tech stuff like Mike B (Finance Major!) but i do know Sony is almost breaking even after 2 years of the release of the ps3. Sony doesn't care about "winning" an imaginary "war" created by the media and fanboys, they care about the net present value of their investment which like i said is about to break even after 2 years, and has another 7-8 years left on the market (not to mention THEY OFFICIALLY WON THE BIG "WAR", THE FORMAT WAR!).

To conclude, everyone will eventually want a ps3, if not now 1 year from now, if not then 2 years from now. Honestly, it's time for all you people to stop hating on the ps3 and finally realize that the ps3 will be, if it isn't already the console to own, or there will be no killzone 2 for them

I am amused.

@vthokiesrmoo: Whether Sony build PS3 to be around for ten years or not, it's not for Sony to decide how long the product can live in the market. It's the market to decide.
Since you said you're finance major, what does it mean when Sony has better chance in making money with PS4 that it has with PS3?
PS3 isn't the system to own, for that it's too expensive, lacks the games and momentum.
SCE can turn into making profit, but that doesn't mean that PS3 itself would be making profit and even if it would, SCE would still be billions in the hole with PS3.

vthokiesrmoo said: To conclude, everyone will eventually want a ps3, if not now 1 year from now, if not then 2 years from now. Honestly, it's time for all you people to stop hating on the ps3 and finally realize that the ps3 will be, if it isn't already the console to own, or there will be no killzone 2 for them

So, in your mind, the Wii Bowling crowd is suddenly "grow up" and want to play a FPS like Killzone 2, right?  Killzone 2 will be such a killer app that even people who don't like FPS games will feel the MUST have it, right?

Even in the midst of a large scale recession/depression, peopel will feel KZ2 is a MUST have?  Are you serious?

My money is on no regarding that.  By the time the PS3 starts to hit its stride, the next XBox system should be out, which will make the PS3 look OLD.

 

@ bdbdbd- As time progresses PS3 will most certainly be the system to own. Although myself and many believe it already is. And no Sony will be profitable with the PS3. It will be down the line, but they will be profitable. And the only thing i agree with you is as for right now it may be priced too high for some. I disagree with the lack of games statement because of the fact that the ps3 has too many good games for most to even afford. Of course, the price will eventually change tho. And you are wrong again, Sony is about 2 billion in the hole with the ps3, so if they make an average of $100 on each unit sold for the rest of the lifespan of the ps3 they would have to sell 20 million units to break even. They have achieved that in 2 years with 400-500-600 dollar prices. I'd say in its remaining 8 years they could certainly make a profit.

@richarddhutnik- if you want to buy your new xbox and peripherals whenever it comes out be my guest. I own the most future proof console with by far the most potential. And as long as tv's are benchmarking at 1080p, which they will be for years to come, your new xbox won't look much better if at all better than my ps3.