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Forums - General - Ground troops in Gaza. Give me one good reason why this is needed?

Jackson50 said:
mrstickball said:If you are referring to the Gaza strip in your argument, Jackson? You must realize that the Gaza Strip is not an independant nation, nor has been given legal status as such, or recognized by any major nation. Because of that, it's hard to say that what Israel is doing to it isn't illegal, or wrong - Given the circumstances of why it's been blocked off.

It's been blocked off because they were being supplied from nearby nations with bombs and guns to go kill more people, and also send suicide bombers across the border to blow themselves up in crowded shopping malls. The Gaza Strip has become a prison because it's citizens have (unfortunately) decided to allow terrorists and criminals control their 'nation' (I use quotations since it's not a nation).

Because of the atrocities comitted against the Israelis by the Palestenian suicide bombers, I must ask you: What better option did Israel have? If they did not wall it off, there would of been countless more bombers to walk into Israel, blowing up civilians - We're seeing the same kind of logic in the rocket strikes. Israel did the most 'humane' thing by walling it off, preventing people from walking in for the kill.

Also, for those deriding what's done: I'd love to see a viable option put on the table on how to solve an issue that involves one side willing to blow themselves up to achieve their goal of the removal of Israel. Last I checked, Europe and America fought a very long war that saw 100,000,000 people (many civilians) die just so certain ethnic groups, and nations wouldn't be systematically butchered. Hamas has the same goals - So why are you giving them a free pass to blow up people without any sort of action being taken to hamper their goals of genocide?

I'm not trying to say that Israel is doing everything perfectly, or is in the right 100% of the time. But war is a very bitter, and brutal thing. No war is right, or just, but sometimes, in the name of self-defense, certain horrible things are the result. The atrocities could EASILY be averted if Hamas would agree to stop the rocket attacks and agree to build a 2-state nation.

I am well aware of the nebulous status of Gaza. Anyway, the status was irrelevant to my point. He said he would be pissed off because people were firing rockets at him. I can agree with that sentiment. I was attempting to convey the conflict from the Palestinian viewpoint. Would you not also be upset if a nation was effectively blockading you from the rest of the world and restricting your fuel and food supplies? You see, I was not referring to the Gaza barrier when I referred to the blockade. The barrier was an understandable measure that has been largely successful in eliminating the threat of suicide bombers leaving Gaza. This has also been witnessed in the West Bank. I was referring Israel's blockade that sealed the border and prohibited exports while concurrently limiting vital imports. In my opinion, Israel must bare the responsibility for ensuring that Gaza receives its supplies considering it controls Gaza's airspace, ports, and most of its land border. I would call the blockade a disproportionate response that has led to a minor or moderate humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It has also been a largely ineffective tactic.  

I do believe that Hamas shoulders a greater share of the blame for the situation. With that being said, Israel has employed some questionable tactics that cannot be glossed over and left unaddressed.

The Israelis secure the airspace and sea around Gaza to prevent weapons from being brought in for Hamas to use to murder Israelis as well, and therefore it serves the same purpose as the checkpoints on the ground (the protection of Israelis, both Jewish and Arab).

And as for questionable tactics, which ones are you referring to?



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Xen said:
skip said:
Frankenstein said:
skip said:
Frankenstein said:

Because Israel doesn't care who it kills.

Every Palestinian is a militant to them, and every buidling is militant headquarters, even if it is a fucking children's hospital.

I hope Hamas does some serious damage to the Israeli military, because what Israel is doing is nothing short of genocide.

 

When the ceasfire ended hamas/militants attacked israel with hundreds of rockets.  Israel is simply forcing hamas/militants out of governance/ into another ceasefire.  Hamas was the aggressor and is the one that desires genocide not israel.

Believe whatever you hear from the bias media.

The truth is Israel has turned Gaza into a prison, there is a huge wall around it and little to no aid is getting through. Israel routinely kills civilians and then passes it off as militants who were killed.

Hundreds of Palestinian civilians have been killed compared to what, 4 Israelis? That is a shocking number.

so are you saying that the media faked the aftermath/occurence of the rocket attacks, bribed the independant bloggers/youtubers, and bribed one of my classmates who was in the region with family over winter break?

The only part of my post that has anything to do with the media is that hamas/militants fired hundreds of rockets first.

Hamas runs on a mandate of getting rid of israel, and if I'm not mistaken the only two surrounding arab countries that recognize israels right to exist are egypt and jordan.  (who only recognized israels right to exist after israel beat them back with a big stick when attacked).  syria was working towards recognition with turkey as the mediator, but I haven't heard much about that.

 

I don't see that happening. Syria wants the Golan heights... and that's asking too much... at least in the eys of the Israeli population.

 

 

Israel certainly needs to hold onto the Golan, Syria has shown itself too many times to use it as a artillery & rocket staging point to attack Israel.



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Strategyking92 said:
Well, how would you feel if you had rockets shot at you? I would be pretty pissed off. Hamas does it to themselves, on purpose. They know isreal won't just kill everyone in the gaza strip, so they hide behind the general populace. So, civilian casualties are to be expected. And thus, more support for hamas. It is a neverending circle, really.

 

You're absolutely right.  Hamas likes to see civilian deaths because they see it as a sacrifice in exchange for good P.R. on their side, and negative P.R. for the Israelis.



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100,000,000 people didnt die in world war 2 to help the jews. It was all for political reasons.
OT: Neither side is in the right. Israel shares blame, and always will, for killing civilians. Same for hamas.



 

 

akuma587 said:
Because the US will support anything that Israel does. They could be frying up babies to make latkas, and we would blame Hamas.

 

Uh.. no.  And "frying up babies to make latkas" is an old anti-Semitic story that caused many pogroms that resulted in the deaths of countless numbers of Jews in Europe, so it's really an inappropriate comment to use anyway to make whatever point you were trying to make.

 



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mrstickball said:

Palestineans need to wake up, move out of Gaza, and in to the general Isralei populace. Why fight for a home land free of Jews when you could seek far better economic prosperity by joining with them? 

 

 What do you mean? Non-jewish people in Gaza and the West bank aren't citizens of Israel and they never can be. The Israelis don't want even more Arabs into Israel when they already have over a million of them since 1948. Actually, Palestinians aren't very welcome anywhere, not even in Arab countries (for political and other reasons).



Ugh and with doing nothing the EU and NA are creating terrorists.







Jackson50 said:I am well aware of the nebulous status of Gaza. Anyway, the status was irrelevant to my point. He said he would be pissed off because people were firing rockets at him. I can agree with that sentiment. I was attempting to convey the conflict from the Palestinian viewpoint. Would you not also be upset if a nation was effectively blockading you from the rest of the world and restricting your fuel and food supplies? You see, I was not referring to the Gaza barrier when I referred to the blockade. The barrier was an understandable measure that has been largely successful in eliminating the threat of suicide bombers leaving Gaza. This has also been witnessed in the West Bank. I was referring Israel's blockade that sealed the border and prohibited exports while concurrently limiting vital imports. In my opinion, Israel must bare the responsibility for ensuring that Gaza receives its supplies considering it controls Gaza's airspace, ports, and most of its land border. I would call the blockade a disproportionate response that has led to a minor or moderate humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It has also been a largely ineffective tactic.  

I do believe that Hamas shoulders a greater share of the blame for the situation. With that being said, Israel has employed some questionable tactics that cannot be glossed over and left unaddressed.

Comrade Tovya said:The Israelis secure the airspace and sea around Gaza to prevent weapons from being brought in for Hamas to use to murder Israelis as well, and therefore it serves the same purpose as the checkpoints on the ground (the protection of Israelis, both Jewish and Arab).

And as for questionable tactics, which ones are you referring to?

 

 

Yes, I understand why Israel desires control, and these methods in tandem with the Gaza barrier have been successful in reducing the number of suicide attacks to essentially nil. With that being said, if Israel is going to demand control over the supply lines into and out of Gaza, it should not restrict fuel and food as it has done with this blockade. That is one of the tactics I question. It seems neither a proportionate response nor a successful tactic in dealing with Hamas. As I said, I believe Hamas shoulders a greater share of blame for the situation. Hamas cannot be absolved from its actions and treated as a victim. Conversely, I do not give Israel carte-blanche in its actions.  

 

 



Jackson50 said:
Comrade Tovya said:
I am well aware of the nebulous status of Gaza. Anyway, the status was irrelevant to my point. He said he would be pissed off because people were firing rockets at him. I can agree with that sentiment. I was attempting to convey the conflict from the Palestinian viewpoint. Would you not also be upset if a nation was effectively blockading you from the rest of the world and restricting your fuel and food supplies? You see, I was not referring to the Gaza barrier when I referred to the blockade. The barrier was an understandable measure that has been largely successful in eliminating the threat of suicide bombers leaving Gaza. This has also been witnessed in the West Bank. I was referring Israel's blockade that sealed the border and prohibited exports while concurrently limiting vital imports. In my opinion, Israel must bare the responsibility for ensuring that Gaza receives its supplies considering it controls Gaza's airspace, ports, and most of its land border. I would call the blockade a disproportionate response that has led to a minor or moderate humanitarian crisis in Gaza. It has also been a largely ineffective tactic.  

I do believe that Hamas shoulders a greater share of the blame for the situation. With that being said, Israel has employed some questionable tactics that cannot be glossed over and left unaddressed.

Jackson50 said:

The Israelis secure the airspace and sea around Gaza to prevent weapons from being brought in for Hamas to use to murder Israelis as well, and therefore it serves the same purpose as the checkpoints on the ground (the protection of Israelis, both Jewish and Arab).

And as for questionable tactics, which ones are you referring to?

Yes, I understand why Israel desires control, and these methods in tandem with the Gaza barrier have been successful in reducing the number of suicide attacks to essentially nil. With that being said, if Israel is going to demand control over the supply lines into and out of Gaza, it should not restrict fuel and food as it has done with this blockade. That is one of the tactics I question. It seems neither a proportionate response nor a successful tactic in dealing with Hamas. As I said, I believe Hamas shoulders a greater share of blame for the situation. Hamas cannot be absolved from its actions and treated as a victim. Conversely, I do not give Israel carte-blanche in its actions.  

 

 

 

I could actually agree with you if there were a way to regulate who was receiving the materials (as in keeping those same materials out of the hands of Hamas).  I've banged my head against a wall, and have come up with nothing really (outside of invasion, displacement of Hamas, and the installation of the some-what friendlier Palestian Authority). It's unfortunately almost impossible to prevent Hamas from controlling (and abusing) the resources that enter Gaza.

 



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Comrade Tovya said:
akuma587 said:
Because the US will support anything that Israel does. They could be frying up babies to make latkas, and we would blame Hamas.

 

Uh.. no.  And "frying up babies to make latkas" is an old anti-Semitic story that caused many pogroms that resulted in the deaths of countless numbers of Jews in Europe, so it's really an inappropriate comment to use anyway to make whatever point you were trying to make.

 

Lol, calm down, dude.  I hate all races equally.  I'm giving an extreme example to show how extreme our support is for Israel.  I mean you NEVER hear anyone in our government say anything bad about Israel.  EVER.  Is that normal?  Should our relationship with any country be like that?  Its essentially the same kind of groupthink that got us into the recent financial crisis.  Everyone in the room was saying the same thing, and no one was allowed to disagree.

I'm just saying that the responses we get from the talking heads on any issue involving Israel is always horrendously slanted towards Israel, whether or not Israel is in the right.  And this doesn't even reflect popular sentiment that accurately, or at least seriously masks some people's disapproval of Israel's actions and our past history with Israel.

This article can explain it better than I can:

Dem leaders out of step with voters on Israel's attack on Gaza

January 3, 2009

A new Rasmussen Reports poll -- the first to survey American public opinion specifically regarding the Israeli attack on Gaza -- strongly bolsters the severe disconnect between American public opinion on U.S. policy toward Israel and the consensus views expressed by America's political leadership.

Not only does Rasmussen find that Americans generally "are closely divided over whether the Jewish state should be taking military action against militants in the Gaza Strip" (44 percent to 41 percent, with 15 percent undecided), but Democratic voters overwhelmingly oppose the Israeli offensive -- by a 24-point margin. By stark contrast, Republicans, as one would expect (in light of their history of supporting virtually any proposed attack on Arabs and Muslims), overwhelmingly support the Israeli bombing campaign (62 percent to 27 percent).

It's not at all surprising that Republican leaders -- from Dick Cheney and John Bolton to virtually all appendages of the right-wing noise machine -- are unquestioning supporters of the Israeli attack. After all, they're expressing the core ideology of the overwhelming majority of their voters and audience.

Much more notable is the fact that Democratic leaders -- including Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi -- are just as lock step in their blind, uncritical support for the Israeli attack, in their absolute refusal to utter a word of criticism of, or even reservations about, Israeli actions.

While some Democratic politicians who are marginalized by the party's leadership are willing to express the views that Democratic voters overwhelmingly embrace, the suffocating, fully bipartisan orthodoxy which typically predominates in America when it comes to Israel is in full force with this latest conflict.

Is there any other significant issue in American political life, besides Israel, where citizens split almost evenly in their views, yet the leaders of both parties adopt identical positions which leave half of the citizenry with no real voice?

More notably still, is there any other position, besides Israel, where a party's voters overwhelmingly embrace one position (Israel should not have attacked Gaza) but that party's leadership unanimously embraces the exact opposite position (Israel was absolutely right to attack Gaza and the U.S. must support Israel unequivocally)?

Equally noteworthy is that the factional breakdown regarding Israel-Gaza mirrors quite closely the factional alliances that arose with regard to the Iraq war. Just as was true with Iraq, one finds vigorous pro-war sentiment among the Dick Cheney/National Review/neoconservative/hard-core-GOP crowd, joined (as was true for Iraq) by some American liberals who typically oppose that faction yet eagerly join with them on Israel.

Meanwhile, most of the rest of the world -- Europe, South America, Asia, the Middle East, the U.N. leadership -- opposes and condemns the attack, all to no avail. The parties with the superior military might -- the U.S. and Israel -- dismiss world opinion as essentially irrelevant. Even the pro-war rhetorical tactics are the same, just as those who opposed the Iraq war were said to be "pro-Saddam," those who oppose the Israeli attack on Gaza are now "pro-Hamas."

There are certainly meaningful differences between the U.S. attack on Iraq and the Israeli attack on Gaza (most notably the fact that Hamas does shoot rockets into Israel and has killed Israeli civilians and Israel is blockading and occupying Palestinian land, whereas Iraq did not attack and could not attack the U.S. as the U.S. was sanctioning them and controlling their airspace). But the underlying logic of both wars is far more similar than different: military attacks, invasions and occupations will end rather than exacerbate terrorism; the Muslim world only understands brute force; the root causes of the disputes are irrelevant; diplomacy and the U.N. are largely worthless.

It's therefore entirely unsurprising that the sides split along the same general lines. What's actually somewhat remarkable is that there is even more lock-step consensus among America's political leadership supporting the Israeli attack on Gaza than there was supporting the U.S. attack on Iraq.

 



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