Um, Planescape Torment says Hi! And this one is among the best breed of WRPGs.

Please don't tell me you're comparing books and movies to games. You simply don't do that, they are different mediums, with their strenghts and weaknesses, and should not be compared. A story that works well in a game may not work well as a book, and vice-versa.

I claim that for me FFT has one of the deepest stories for any game. I don't compare it with any book whatsoever. Just like I claim that for me Foundation is the best book I've ever read, and I don't go saying that it has better story than Xenosaga.

Games are games, books are books

ffx-2 yuna has a pop star, WTF!!!

OFT

always giving god hand its props  i thought it was impossible for someone to like that game more than me

Yup, so let's end this argument once and for all.  Playing a game will never be like reading a good book.  That's what I hear some people want games to become, and I personally don't see it happening.

I can't help it. One of the taglines for the game is

"You can PUNCH people in the FACE"

There is nothing not to love about that. It's so honest.

Meeting goes like this:

Man: Sit down sir! Let me give you my idea for a game. Okay. There's a Princess, and she gets kidnapped. You have to save her!

Boss: Okay? Is that it?

Man: No, uhh.....*takes hit from a joint* No sir. Listen to me! Here's the twist: You're a plumber....and you shoot fire when you touch a flower. And Mushrooms make you grow big....but only good mushrooms. If a walking mushrooms touches you, you'll die!

Boss: Get the fuck out of my office......hey! Can I have a hit of your weed? Is that the good shit!?

Man: You better believe it! *Passes the weed*

One hour later...both men laying on the floor giggling

Man: And the Princess is always in another castle.....and, and she's been kidnapped by turtles!

Boss: I like you, Shiggy. You and I should go out and party! Your game gets the green light.  Sometimes, I wonder if we're really aliens, and animals are the rightful rulers of this planet.  Can you imagine a planet run by panda bears?  That would be so awesome.  No more war.  No more jealousy......

Man: And he shoves a racoon up his ass to fly! Ooh, I have soooo many ideas....

Boss:  Hey!  Save something for the sequels!!

Jeez this forum is horrible for quotes.

"I think that your problem is that you don't accept that in RPGs (and in most games in general) there are two different levels (the story level and the gameplay level) that are not interchangeble."

Why should I accept it? Because you say so? Like Khuutra said, lots of games don't do this, and even some you list AS doing this, don't. They handle it much better.

"Thus, what anyone can do in the gameplay level does not correlate to what that guy can do in the story level. You can criticize that distinction all you want, but if you don't accept it you're gonna suffer quite a bit of disappointments while playing."

No I've actually found a lot of great storylines in games. Final Fantasy Tactics just is not one of them. I have suffered no disappointment at the hand of Zelda or Pokemon or Mario or Dragon Quest or Castlevania. And amazingly, none of them have this distinction that is required.

"To give some examples of the distinction between those levels, it's like saying why don't they use a Phoenix Down in Aerith after Sephiroth slaughters her? I have tons of them!" in Final Fantasy VII or "How did they shoot me? Dante can evade all the bullets in the cutscenes!!" in Devil May Cry.""

What makes you think I DIDN'T say that stuff. That part in FFVII felt forced and ridiculous. It shatters the suspension of disbelief like a sledgehammer with a big rock taped to it.

"I'd rather take a game that, even using that "level distinction technique", can deliver a deep, complex and captivating story like FFT, Suikoden, Persona 3/4, FF VII/VIII/X, Chrono Cross, etc. a thousand times over a game that they can't even put together a story like Dragon Quest VIII"

Did you seriously just put Chrono Cross on this list? I mean, I can see where your standards come from now and that further argument will be pointless. But... Chrono Cross? That abortion? Well... OK.. whatever, you have your tastes. And Persona 3 and 4 don't have this "distinction" thing, because it's pretty clear the characters only have these powers during the Dark Hour/TV World and not anywhere else. That is handling great powers effectively in a believable way that does not shatter the suspension of disbelief.

"Please don't tell me you're comparing books and movies to games. You simply don't do that, they are different mediums, with their strenghts and weaknesses, and should not be compared. A story that works well in a game may not work well as a book, and vice-versa."

I can and WILL do that. Do I have to think like you to see things your way? Just because it's a game doesn't excuse it from having a shit story and using boring, tired plot devices. For example, Earthbound has an outstanding story and concept, with ironclad story elements. And it's better than a few novels I've read recently. And subsequently, better than Final Fantasy Tactics.

I think it's that I found depth where you didn't and value nuance more than directed, leading storylines that rely more on ham-handed hand-holding and no short-term memory.

At this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.

That's a great example! I could only think of a few lousy MegaZeux titles. Yeah, great RPG, but the amnesia thing is so trite and reeks of bad sci-fi.

It's bad writing because it's a really cheap way to fill in back story. It requires no thought on the writer's part. They can skip describing the guy's childhood, family life or events before the story because, well, he has *amnesia*. It's also an instant plot twist later in the story (if the writer chooses) when the protagonist finds out he's actually a bad guy, or a major player in an ancient prophecy. Cheap and nasty.