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Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
"FDR made Bush look like a saint when it came to civil liberties."

Those Japanese were imprisoned for much less time than a lot of people in Guantanamo, and not tortured AFAIK.

[...]
[...]

The Japanese were imprisoned for much less time... however they also had no reason for the majority of them to be there, and went around capturing people who weren't even in south america.

Furthermore he deported a masses of people to Japan... who weren't even from there... or the US, but south America.

The people in Guantanamo were also imprisoned without sufficient reason.  I guess you could argue that one action was unconstitutional and the other was MORE unconstitutional, but ... come on. 

When you say "capturing people who weren't even in south america", I presume you mean "not even in the US but SA".  I did confirm that we somehow got Japanese individuals from South America in U.S. internment camps, but not that they were successfully deported to Japan.  Update:  I see no evidence thus far that this particularly disgusting part of an already unsavory corner of U.S. history occurred with FDR's knowledge or consent, much less at his behest.



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Bursche said:
I personally like Polk. Gets in for one term in office, does an extremely great job, then leaves office and dies 3 months later. Thank you Mr. Polk for much of the West.

 



ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

The equal oppurtunity employment act... which did nothing for people based on race.

Your logic is suffering as you try to defend your position.  I fail to see how this legislation, what historians have called the greatest advancement of rights for African Americans between abolition (1865) and the civil rights movement (1964), which forbid employers from not hiring people based on their race, as doing nothing for black people.

What so if your ok for black people you aren't racist?

That's a pretty narrow view. 

The only time that commision was of any use was during WW2 because outside of that there really wasn't many government jobs, and those government jobs were and still are never picked actually based on qualifications.

At the same time the commision was useful, Japanese people were locked up, as well as people that "seemed" japanese and could not take part of it.



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
"FDR made Bush look like a saint when it came to civil liberties."

Those Japanese were imprisoned for much less time than a lot of people in Guantanamo, and not tortured AFAIK.

[...]
[...]

The Japanese were imprisoned for much less time... however they also had no reason for the majority of them to be there, and went around capturing people who weren't even in south america.

Furthermore he deported a masses of people to Japan... who weren't even from there... or the US, but south America.

The people in Guantanamo were also imprisoned without sufficient reason.  I guess you could argue that one action was unconstitutional and the other was MORE unconstitutional, but ... come on. 

When you say "capturing people who weren't even in south america", I presume you mean "not even in the US but SA".  I did confirm that we somehow got Japanese individuals from South America in U.S. internment camps, but not that they were successfully deported to Japan.  UpdateI see no evidence thus far that this particularly disgusting part of an already unsavory corner of U.S. history occurred with FDR's knowledge or consent, much less at his behest.

Considering a number of people fought it in courts, it would of have to have came to his attention.  The whole thing was done under an executive order, and so should of the resetlment.

It should also be noted that many of these people were not repaid for their possesions and land seized.

 



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
[...] TR's enlightenment still had him saying things like, "The settler and pioneer have at bottom had justice on their side; this great continent could not have been kept as nothing but a game preserve for squalid savages."

The "civilizationist" angle is pretty arguable IMO when it just so happens that all the "civilizations" are white.  Unless you can show me that he thought otherwise?

I mean, from what I've seen in a brief review, TR's attitude seems very close to the "White Man's Burden" theme, whereas FDR was operating on the level of equal treatment, even if he didn't always deliver.

You say FDR is horrible for the Japanese internment camps, but you quote TR saying that atrocities towards the 'savages' are the price of progress.  Why is that more enlightened?
Simple...

He said the only correct thing to do was to treat each man soley on a person to person basis based on their abilties.

TR would of seen Japanese immivgrants as no different then anyone else, people that should be treated on a case to case basis... and not interning them.  Japanese Internment wouldn't of happened under TR.

When you look at TRs quotes he says "Dominant World Races"  in otherwords not just white.  The Japanese themselves probably also counted among this, as did black people part of the United States.

[...]

But now you're applying his views on something to be done on a case by case basis (judging individuals) to something done en masse (treatment of large groups).  Lots of people have seemingly contrary views there.  Also, isn't it the case that he actually considered blacks generally inferior, but that he allowed for individuals to rise above to the level of whites?  So he might be consistent in supporting treating black and white peoples differently but always treating individuals according to their own merits, if the black peoples are inferior to the white peoples generally. 

As for "Dominant World Races", I think a lot of (white) people from that time period were considering different European groups as entire different races (whereas most now group them into "white" or at most "white/Hispanic").  I am completely unconvinced that the DWR reference applied in TR's consideration to the Japanese instead of the "races" being (perhaps) Nordic, Mediterranean, and Eastern European.  Can you give me an example where Roosevelt considered a non-white group to be a dominant race of his time? 

Hell, he might well have considered the Japanese an example of savages becoming civilized by the proper method of copying the DWR culture, since they spent the entire late 1800s co-opting European technology/science/government/etc.

On the other hand, maybe not.  Can you show me otherwise? 

Savages becoming civilized are then civilized and dominant tht was his point.

I mean compare the racism... which is worse.

"They come from a worse enviroment."

or

"Their race is inherently defficient."

The top is TR the bottom is FDR.

Hell the top is still used today.  It's nationalism pure and simple.  Just how people in Europe thing Americans are Stupid, and everyone feels bad for the poor africans... etc.

TR was for All races and Women to be treated equally under US law as white men.  It's in just about every bit of writing there is about him.

All citizens of the US should be treated the same.

He's views were scarcly different then the views of today on the matter.  He held his country and his allies countries ahead of other countries... what president doesn't?

As for thinking White people as a whole were better then black people... lets be honest, what part of that wasn't true during his time?  There was very little skilled labor among the black community due to the effects of slavery... in general "savages" would need to adjust to the "modern world". 

That's why TR was for desegregation, he wanted equal oppurtunites for all so that all men could be equal and judged not by their skin color but by their merits.

 



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Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
"FDR made Bush look like a saint when it came to civil liberties."

Those Japanese were imprisoned for much less time than a lot of people in Guantanamo, and not tortured AFAIK.

[...]
[...]

The Japanese were imprisoned for much less time... however they also had no reason for the majority of them to be there, and went around capturing people who weren't even in south america.

Furthermore he deported a masses of people to Japan... who weren't even from there... or the US, but south America.

The people in Guantanamo were also imprisoned without sufficient reason.  I guess you could argue that one action was unconstitutional and the other was MORE unconstitutional, but ... come on. 

When you say "capturing people who weren't even in south america", I presume you mean "not even in the US but SA".  I did confirm that we somehow got Japanese individuals from South America in U.S. internment camps, but not that they were successfully deported to Japan.  UpdateI see no evidence thus far that this particularly disgusting part of an already unsavory corner of U.S. history occurred with FDR's knowledge or consent, much less at his behest.

Considering a number of people fought it in courts, it would of have to have came to his attention.  The whole thing was done under an executive order, and so should of the resetlment.

It should also be noted that many of these people were not repaid for their possesions and land seized.

I don't mean the internments in general; I mean, he signed Executive Order 9066, so obviously he knew of it. 

I don't see evidence that he was aware of the specific part of the internments that involved the U.S. accepting people from Peru (that were basically kidnapped by the Peruvian government), apparently at least partly for the purpose of having hostages.  You followed the link right?



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The Ghost of RubangB said:
Bursche said:
I personally like Polk. Gets in for one term in office, does an extremely great job, then leaves office and dies 3 months later. Thank you Mr. Polk for much of the West.

 

nobody really talks about polk much... I didn't even know he did so much.

 



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Also i've yet to have someone explain to me how anything could be "racism for the time."

When he signed an executive order himself to do something that was a giant leap backwords.

Had the slave year presidents used executive orders to make slavery harder to abolish, i'd say they were just as guilty and racist.

FDR to me falls in the same category as Andrew Jackson. A President who accomplished some good things, so they ignored the monumentally damaging, unconstituional and horrible things they do.

In my book... no amount of good can make up for a huge violation.



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
"FDR made Bush look like a saint when it came to civil liberties."

Those Japanese were imprisoned for much less time than a lot of people in Guantanamo, and not tortured AFAIK.

[...]
[...]

The Japanese were imprisoned for much less time... however they also had no reason for the majority of them to be there, and went around capturing people who weren't even in south america.

Furthermore he deported a masses of people to Japan... who weren't even from there... or the US, but south America.

The people in Guantanamo were also imprisoned without sufficient reason.  I guess you could argue that one action was unconstitutional and the other was MORE unconstitutional, but ... come on. 

When you say "capturing people who weren't even in south america", I presume you mean "not even in the US but SA".  I did confirm that we somehow got Japanese individuals from South America in U.S. internment camps, but not that they were successfully deported to Japan.  UpdateI see no evidence thus far that this particularly disgusting part of an already unsavory corner of U.S. history occurred with FDR's knowledge or consent, much less at his behest.

Considering a number of people fought it in courts, it would of have to have came to his attention.  The whole thing was done under an executive order, and so should of the resetlment.

It should also be noted that many of these people were not repaid for their possesions and land seized.

I don't mean the internments in general; I mean, he signed Executive Order 9066, so obviously he knew of it. 

I don't see evidence that he was aware of the specific part of the internments that involved the U.S. accepting people from Peru (that were basically kidnapped by the Peruvian government), apparently at least partly for the purpose of having hostages.  You followed the link right?

Your suggesting that someone else in the government just accepted a bunch of japanese people in the middle of WW2 without even notifying the president?

That's something that had to come across his desk.

That's like saying that the president wouldn't know we were selling weapons to "freedom fighter" groups.

Keep in mind we oursselves deported plenty of US citizens, and people who weren't aloud to be US citizens because of racist laws against asians to japan.

I mean that link itself shows FDR's racism towards asian americans.



Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
[...] TR's enlightenment still had him saying things like, "The settler and pioneer have at bottom had justice on their side; this great continent could not have been kept as nothing but a game preserve for squalid savages."

The "civilizationist" angle is pretty arguable IMO when it just so happens that all the "civilizations" are white.  Unless you can show me that he thought otherwise?

I mean, from what I've seen in a brief review, TR's attitude seems very close to the "White Man's Burden" theme, whereas FDR was operating on the level of equal treatment, even if he didn't always deliver.

You say FDR is horrible for the Japanese internment camps, but you quote TR saying that atrocities towards the 'savages' are the price of progress.  Why is that more enlightened?
Simple...

He said the only correct thing to do was to treat each man soley on a person to person basis based on their abilties.

TR would of seen Japanese immivgrants as no different then anyone else, people that should be treated on a case to case basis... and not interning them.  Japanese Internment wouldn't of happened under TR.

When you look at TRs quotes he says "Dominant World Races"  in otherwords not just white.  The Japanese themselves probably also counted among this, as did black people part of the United States.

[...]
But now you're applying his views on something to be done on a case by case basis (judging individuals) to something done en masse (treatment of large groups).  Lots of people have seemingly contrary views there.  Also, isn't it the case that he actually considered blacks generally inferior, but that he allowed for individuals to rise above to the level of whites?  So he might be consistent in supporting treating black and white peoples differently but always treating individuals according to their own merits, if the black peoples are inferior to the white peoples generally.

As for "Dominant World Races", I think a lot of (white) people from that time period were considering different European groups as entire different races (whereas most now group them into "white" or at most "white/Hispanic").  I am completely unconvinced that the DWR reference applied in TR's consideration to the Japanese instead of the "races" being (perhaps) Nordic, Mediterranean, and Eastern European.  Can you give me an example where Roosevelt considered a non-white group to be a dominant race of his time?

Hell, he might well have considered the Japanese an example of savages becoming civilized by the proper method of copying the DWR culture, since they spent the entire late 1800s co-opting European technology/science/government/etc.

On the other hand, maybe not.  Can you show me otherwise?
Savages becoming civilized are then civilized and dominant tht was his point.

I mean compare the racism... which is worse.
"They come from a worse enviroment."
or
"Their race is inherently defficient."

The top is TR the bottom is FDR.

Hell the top is still used today.  It's nationalism pure and simple.  Just how people in Europe thing Americans are Stupid, and everyone feels bad for the poor africans... etc.

TR was for All races and Women to be treated equally under US law as white men.

Isn't it true that TR believed that blacks were at a lower level of evolution than whites? 

I don't have any problem with your assertion that TR was more progressive on race for his time than FDR, but FDR was 30 years later and I don't see that FDR was more racist than TR.  First blacks in the DNC, blacks in key advisory positions, etc.  His behavior with respect to Jews got some people calling the New Deal the "Jew Deal".  I'm not aware that he was pushing for XO9066 due to racial bias, and I don't recall that he was instrumental in the proposal at all, just that he ultimately approved.  He was wrong to do it, but you haven't convinced me that it was due to extraordinary prejudice against Japanese on his part. 

"While FDR just outright hated the Japanese, and there are plenty of statements to prove it."  Please provide them.  Keep in mind that we were in a war against them in the 1940s, and you have said he was MORE racist than the general population. 

"The principle on which this country was founded and by which it has always been governed is that Americanism is a matter of the mind and heart; Americanism is not, and never was, a matter of race or ancestry."  He didn't always live up to this high rhetoric.  We agree on that much.  But it was politically easier for TR to be racially progressive than FDR because of the Southern Democrats, one of whom said of TR, "The action of President Roosevelt in entertaining that nigger will necessitate our killing a thousand niggers in the South before they learn their place again."



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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