THE BEST PRESIDENT TO EVER LEAD THE USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Final-Fan]

Kasz216 said:

Final-Fan said:

Kasz216 said:

Final-Fan said:
[...] TR's enlightenment still had him saying things like, "The settler and pioneer have at bottom had justice on their side; this great continent could not have been kept as nothing but a game preserve for squalid savages."

The "civilizationist" angle is pretty arguable IMO when it just so happens that all the "civilizations" are white.  Unless you can show me that he thought otherwise?

I mean, from what I've seen in a brief review, TR's attitude seems very close to the "White Man's Burden" theme, whereas FDR was operating on the level of equal treatment, even if he didn't always deliver.

You say FDR is horrible for the Japanese internment camps, but you quote TR saying that atrocities towards the 'savages' are the price of progress.  Why is that more enlightened?

Simple...

He said the only correct thing to do was to treat each man soley on a person to person basis based on their abilties.

TR would of seen Japanese immivgrants as no different then anyone else, people that should be treated on a case to case basis... and not interning them.  Japanese Internment wouldn't of happened under TR.

When you look at TRs quotes he says "Dominant World Races"  in otherwords not just white.  The Japanese themselves probably also counted among this, as did black people part of the United States.

[...]

But now you're applying his views on something to be done on a case by case basis (judging individuals) to something done en masse (treatment of large groups).  Lots of people have seemingly contrary views there.  Also, isn't it the case that he actually considered blacks generally inferior, but that he allowed for individuals to rise above to the level of whites?  So he might be consistent in supporting treating black and white peoples differently but always treating individuals according to their own merits, if the black peoples are inferior to the white peoples generally.

As for "Dominant World Races", I think a lot of (white) people from that time period were considering different European groups as entire different races (whereas most now group them into "white" or at most "white/Hispanic").  I am completely unconvinced that the DWR reference applied in TR's consideration to the Japanese instead of the "races" being (perhaps) Nordic, Mediterranean, and Eastern European.  Can you give me an example where Roosevelt considered a non-white group to be a dominant race of his time?

Hell, he might well have considered the Japanese an example of savages becoming civilized by the proper method of copying the DWR culture, since they spent the entire late 1800s co-opting European technology/science/government/etc.

On the other hand, maybe not.  Can you show me otherwise?

Savages becoming civilized are then civilized and dominant tht was his point.

I mean compare the racism... which is worse.
"They come from a worse enviroment."
or
"Their race is inherently defficient."

The top is TR the bottom is FDR.

Hell the top is still used today.  It's nationalism pure and simple.  Just how people in Europe thing Americans are Stupid, and everyone feels bad for the poor africans... etc.

TR was for All races and Women to be treated equally under US law as white men.

Isn't it true that TR believed that blacks were at a lower level of evolution than whites? 

I don't have any problem with your assertion that TR was more progressive on race for his time than FDR, but FDR was 30 years later and I don't see that FDR was more racist than TR.  First blacks in the DNC, blacks in key advisory positions, etc.  His behavior with respect to Jews got some people calling the New Deal the "Jew Deal".  I'm not aware that he was pushing for XO9066 due to racial bias, and I don't recall that he was instrumental in the proposal at all, just that he ultimately approved.  He was wrong to do it, but you haven't convinced me that it was due to extraordinary prejudice against Japanese on his part. 

"While FDR just outright hated the Japanese, and there are plenty of statements to prove it."  Please provide them.  Keep in mind that we were in a war against them in the 1940s, and you have said he was MORE racist than the general population. 

"The principle on which this country was founded and by which it has always been governed is that Americanism is a matter of the mind and heart; Americanism is not, and never was, a matter of race or ancestry."  He didn't always live up to this high rhetoric.  We agree on that much.  But it was politically easier for TR to be racially progressive than FDR because of the Southern Democrats, one of whom said of TR, "The action of President Roosevelt in entertaining that nigger will necessitate our killing a thousand niggers in the South before they learn their place again."