1)From what I've seen from Wii Fit footage each excercise/routine introduces some form of challenge, whether it's maintaining balance, timing jumps ,sihting weight etc.  It's much like a physical Brain Traing or BBA.

2)But aren't you getting the cues from the game? I really don't get what you're saying.

3)So you are saying sports simulation games aren't traditional, I disagree. Also going by your logic if one person is playing Gran Turismo with a control pad and the other a racing wheel the first is playing a traditioanl video game and the other is not, even though it's the same piece of software??

4)So you think some DDR owners are dancing on their mat without the tv or system switched on? Both games are pointless when turned off, not just Wii Sports.

5) If the points/scores/visuals are not the point why aren't people just buying karaoke machines or singing in the shower? From what you're saying about Singstar and DDR is true why are people buying them? Could it be the challenges/scores/points are what attracts the consumer to the product in the first place?

Great post nine0nine, I especially like the first paragraph.

"Since the advent of the PS1 the whole gaming scene has become more casual, i recall an old copy of Edge magazine that covered the shift and it was generally greeted with negative comments. Games seemed to suddenly change from pure gaming to gaming with hours of pointless presentation, fmv, gimmicky extras and so on. 10 years later these people that were attracted to gaming by those things sit on message boards and tell everyone else whats casual and hardcore now."

If you condense that down some that could be sig material.

1) When you set a certain amount of calories you want to burn in a given work out does that make it a game? If you are doing certain yoga routines as instructed by Wii Fit is that a game? It's the same as doing exercise according to a taped instructor or something.

2) You are getting the cues from the game but that isn't necessary to the game. You can do the same thing if someone just instructed you where to step or some kind of other audio or visual thing told you what to do next. It's like being instructed on how to carry out steps. It's a game but not a video game. It's a game with a software that improves the experience not is the experience.

3) Waving a wiimote and having your motion mimiced in a game is not the same as turning a wheel and having the game car go the way you tell it to. The wheel is just a fancy controller for input, the Wii mote is a motion sensor for a game like Wii Sports meaning it is inputting your physical movements and not control inputs. Why is it a problem if it's not traditional anyway? It's a new type of game. You can't tell me you honestly think a Wheel controller and a motion sensing remote are the same thing.

4) DDR is supposed to be 'dancing' by telling you what to do. You don't need the game to do the activities. You can just do it on your own if you wanted to. I'm not saying people would rather do it without any additional fun to the experience. The point is the DDR software might be what makes the activity fun but it isn't the focus of the activity itself. You don't need DDR or Singstar to do it, it's just better with them because there are clearer objectives and ways to measure them and score them. They are both games with set objectives and such just not video games where the main activity is occuring in the game or on the screen or what have you.

5) Check 4. I didn't say it doesn't add to the experience. In fact I said exactly what you are in that it adds to the experience but it isn't the core of the experience itself. The games are just a layer added to the main game which is what you are doing (singing or dancing).

Also I'm positive more people actually dance without DDR and more people sing in the shower and at karaokes than when using these games but it's not easy to come up with a statistic for that :) but I'm sure you agree.

DDR basically is the same as a radio and dance instructor in one and Singstar is turning your PS2 into a Karaoke machine. Neither of them are necessary to do what you are doing but they add something to the experience. This is why I consider them games but not video games.

Hum...let me see...one game you "play" a guitar...one game you do exercises...let me see which one hardcore videogame players will like more...

Guitar Hero is called casual, I'm not sure who hasn't called it that.  No one is shying away from casual as long as there are actual gameplay elements that are challenging in the game, and Guitar Hero more than provides that.

However, ckmlb, DDR is a videogame.  It is not dancing.  I can't dance at all but I can sure play DDR.  It's just a rhythm game for your legs. 

I think we essentially agree.

Some people will call GH casual and some won't but everybody calls Wii Fit casual and I think it's this basic hypocrisy by a chunk of the gaming populace that I'm trying to address. Wii Fit being criticised for being casual by some is just one of the many symptoms shown by a number of gamers who are screaming doom for the industry and just generally scaremongering in regards to companies like Nintendo diversiying the type of games it releases .

In reality of course the source of this hostility is the result of N not catering exclusively to their tastes and rather than just accepting that the the same demographic of people will not have the industry focussed solely on them any more they try to disparage the new types of games which are emerging, labelling them 'non-games' or 'casual' whilst having GH or DDR sitting snugly in their 'hardcore' collection.

It's not that I'm questioning why the average gamer likes GH it's why he/she has to knock Wii Fit and other games like it just because it wasn't aimed specifically at him/her.

People need to grow up.

Both GH and WiiFit appeal to casual players. GH on Expert is quite difficult and that challenge appeals to hardcore gamers. WiiFit may get difficult we just don't know yet.

They are both less innovative then people most people recognize.
Guitar Hero is a popularized version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_Freaks from 98
WiiFit is a popularized version of http://www.yourselffitness.com/ with a scale controller added

There is nothing wrong with not being the first game to do something. In general it's the first game to do it right that makes the genre popular. GuitarFreaks had a horrible song list for western gamers and WiiFit will make it so your progress can be tracked on screen instead of entered through the UI.

The big difference is the experience the simulate.

GH allows you to be a quality guitar player in a band rocking out in front of an audience. That's a fun fantasy to fulfill that isn't easy acquire in real life. I've had a couple guitars for years, but I'm not in a band and certainly can't play at the level to complete a lot of the songs in guitar hero. So the game is letting me do someone that otherwise would be out of my reach without a ton of dedication. Additionally those guitars and amp cost me more then guitar hero did.

WiiFit allow you to do a bunch of things you could do cheaper without a console or the game.
Stand on one leg? Yep I can do that.
Hula Hoop? $0.99 at the dollar store and I can try that as well.
Basic Line dance? $9 videotape
Yoga? $9 videotape
Play Soccer? $20 for a ball and walk to the park down the street

WiiSports was fun because I don't have a bowling alley in my house, and it gave me cheap access to one. What WiiFit is simulating is easier and cheaper to do without the game. Thus it is open for parody and derision: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iYBmAVuBns

I thought your post was going ok if not slightly off topic unitl the last 2 paragraphs. By your logic people shouldn't own a PS3 or 360 full stop because they can play something similiar on a cheaper system, GH2 is a good example. In Wii fit it is also monitoring your progress, setting goals etc. so you could liken it to a personal trainer, how much money would one of those set you back in the long run? Also we haven't seen many of Wii Fit's games so you don't know that it wont introduce routines based on more expensive real life activites though I think this whole argument is pretty silly.

Like windbane said, just because DDR is based on dancing doesn't mean it's the same thing and this is also true of the football, hula hoop and indeed DDR-like stages in Wii Fit so to compare them to real life is pointless.

Wow this has become a lengthy discussion. I'm just going to pop in to ask a question: Has anyone mentioned yet that Wii fit isn't out yet and we have no idea what all 30 activities are? (it was 30 wasn't it?) Because categorizing the game is a lot easier when you actually know what it is.

I did touch on it in my most recent post but you're right we won't know exactly what we're getting til it's out though I think it's still reasonable to speculate on and discuss what's been shown so far as it's probably representative of the rest of the game in terms of play mechanics.