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Forums - Gaming - Malstrom: Mega Man herald of apocalypse (but game won't be all that great)

@Onyxmeth:
1. No. Malstrom is intepreting Bozon correctly, even in the beginning of the review, Bozon says what the hardcore wanted from Megaman 9, was the tough-as-nails gameplay of Megaman 2. So what the "hardcore" wanted from this game, is for it to resemble the easiest game in the series. Read the review, you'll notice that Bozon is giving the impression Malstrom is talking about.
And even if we have a blue ocean game, it's not guaranteed to be a runaway success. What Capcom tries to pull out here, is NSMB.

2. The term wasn't there back then, but the elitist pricks were. During the NES days, the "PS360 hardcore", was the people who played games with gaming computers and PC:s. Nothing have changed, except what people and games were called. And Megaman 2 wasn't considered as a game for the "hardcore" of the time. There was the people who "had played G&W and liked the games, but..." and people who "had played Donkey Kong in the arcade and liked it, but...". You see the pattern?

3. I agree to an extent. DS is showing the audience expansion and a shift in core audience, which should apply to Wii too, but even Nintendo isn't after the shift, it wants the blue ocean gamers eventually to play the same games as the current core audience. But since everybody isn't going upstream, we end up having variety of game tastes.

4. I haven't played the new versions, or am not really familiar with them, so i can't really say whether they are blue ocean games or not, but they can be, there's no reason for them not to be.
We aren't lapsed gamers, at least most of us, although i could count myself as a former lapsed gamer, even that i didn't really quit gaming. But would have without the Wii and the DS. Anyway, Megaman 9 is for people who want nostalgia just as well as for the lapsed gamers. The problem is, that i doubt Megaman 9 is a game that sells a 250 system, so there needs to be more of them, and you find similar titles from Virtual Console (to me, even if Wii wouldn't have had anything aside Virtual Console, it would still have been a day one purchase). So in the end, Megaman 9 is for the Virtual Console customer, which mostly are the retro and lapsed gamers, in both cases, Megaman 9 qualifies as blue ocean game.

And yes, i do know what lapsed means and lapsed gamer is one of the blue ocean groups Nintendo wants to tap. You often see even the retro (only) gamers count in as lapsed gamers for the reason that they don't buy new games and from the market point of view these are lapsed, since they don't contribute anything, they are non-existing in the market. And since they virtually don't exist, the market doesn't cater to them.



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

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Soma said:

"Bozon saying Mega Man 2 is ‘hardcore’ sounds like he is using the reasoning of “since I am hardcore and I like this game, therefore, this game must be hardcore”. Some might say, “But Malstrom! Mega Man 9 is hard! Therefore, it is only for hardcore!” Oh please. Everyone agrees that the early NES games were hard and that the NES users were mostly children. Are you telling me that children, most of whom had little to no experience in video games, were ‘hardcore’ in the 1980s? Of course not."

 

^^THIS. END OF DISCUSSION

 

 Wow, everytime I read something of Malstrom's I'm surprised at just how much he's wrong and yet people still spread the nonsense.  Hardcore isn't defined by a person's age.  Many of those "children" were hardcore because they lived on videogames

Also I didn't bother to read the rest of Malstrom's article (verbose nonsense) but I'm going to assume that he's ignorant of games such as Pac Man Championship Edition and Galaga Legions because what he has written makes no sense when they are considered.

Another ridiculous Malstrom article, why is his nonsense still being spread?  At least manure is useful.  Hey maybe I should start calling Malstrom "Manure" because they're both full of sh*t.



Legend11 said:
Soma said:

"Bozon saying Mega Man 2 is ‘hardcore’ sounds like he is using the reasoning of “since I am hardcore and I like this game, therefore, this game must be hardcore”. Some might say, “But Malstrom! Mega Man 9 is hard! Therefore, it is only for hardcore!” Oh please. Everyone agrees that the early NES games were hard and that the NES users were mostly children. Are you telling me that children, most of whom had little to no experience in video games, were ‘hardcore’ in the 1980s? Of course not."

 

^^THIS. END OF DISCUSSION

 

 Wow, everytime I read something of Malstrom's I'm surprised at just how much he's wrong and yet people still spread the nonsense.  Hardcore isn't defined by a person's age.  Many of those "children" were hardcore because they lived on videogames

Also I didn't bother to read the rest of Malstrom's article (verbose nonsense) but I'm going to assume that he's ignorant of games such as Pac Man Championship Edition and Galaga Legions because what he has written makes no sense when they are considered.

Another ridiculous Malstrom article, why is his nonsense still being spread?  At least manure is useful.  Hey maybe I should start calling Malstrom "Manure" because they're both full of sh*t.

 

He didn't defines "hardcore" by a person's age. But is probable the younger you are, the less experienced you'll be in something, in this case videogames. I don't think 5 year old kids were more experienced than 12 year old, do you? So how a young inexperienced kid could be considered hardcore? Because they lived on videogames? But if they were new to that entertainment..... OK, if you're right then kids have ALWAYS been hardcore gamers right? Today kids playing Wii Sports, Wii Music, Wii Fit are hardcore gamers too, right?

 

Look again at the definition of hardcore:

"Christensen would define as the ‘undershot’ customers. These gamers like the current trajectory of the industry and want graphics to be more beautiful and games to be more sophisticated."

 

Kids don't care of this things, they just want fun games. They are not hardcore, but very active consumers.

 



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RolStoppable said:
Legend11 said:
Soma said:

"Bozon saying Mega Man 2 is ‘hardcore’ sounds like he is using the reasoning of “since I am hardcore and I like this game, therefore, this game must be hardcore”. Some might say, “But Malstrom! Mega Man 9 is hard! Therefore, it is only for hardcore!” Oh please. Everyone agrees that the early NES games were hard and that the NES users were mostly children. Are you telling me that children, most of whom had little to no experience in video games, were ‘hardcore’ in the 1980s? Of course not."

 

^^THIS. END OF DISCUSSION

 Wow, everytime I read something of Malstrom's I'm surprised at just how much he's wrong and yet people still spread the nonsense.  Hardcore isn't defined by a person's age.  Many of those "children" were hardcore because they lived on videogames

Also I didn't bother to read the rest of Malstrom's article (verbose nonsense) but I'm going to assume that he's ignorant of games such as Pac Man Championship Edition and Galaga Legions because what he has written makes no sense when they are considered.

Another ridiculous Malstrom article, why is his nonsense still being spread?  At least manure is useful.  Hey maybe I should start calling Malstrom "Manure" because they're both full of sh*t.

So a lot of today's hardcore gamers are children, because they play a lot of videogames. Since the Wii is the kiddy system, it has currently the highest number of hardcore gamers. Okay.

PM:CE and GL are following the trajectory of the industry with improved graphics, better sound and more sophistication. Mega Man 9 has 8-Bit graphics, 8-Bit sound and removed some of Mega Man's abilities from later games.

How can you know that the article is ridiculous, if you didn't read the article which you just admitted in the second paragraph of your post? You are insulting someone based on (wrong) assumptions.

Yes, a part of the hardcore includes children.  The Gamecube despite having a kiddy image still had many hardcore gamers.  The Wii is different than the Gamecube in that a significant part of the audience fueling its growth and many of the games beings made for it are casuals. 

Casuals are the people who don't live for videogames or spend a significant amount of time on them.  They're the people you will never find on forums like these for example.  They are the ones that don't buy videogame magazines or go on videogame websites or have a significant gaming online presence.  They buy a Wii for Wii Sports because they heard about if from a friend or seen it on Oprah or saw it at a party or whatever but at the end of the day they're just casually into gaming.

As for how I know his article is ridiculous it's because there are examples that go against what he's trying to claim.  Take PM:CE for example, PM:Legends is an example of the game following the trajectory of the industry.  PM:CE is a game that could have easily been made for older consoles and still looked and played the exact same.  This isn't a slight against PM:CE since it's an incredible game but it's still not following the trajectory of the industy (production costs increasing each generation, etc).



RolStoppable said:

So a lot of today's hardcore gamers are children, because they play a lot of videogames. Since the Wii is the kiddy system, it has currently the highest number of hardcore gamers. Okay.

 

Lol, I just noticed I was beaten by Rol



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Legend11 said:

 

Casuals are the people who don't live for videogames or spend a significant amount of time on them.  They're the people you will never find on forums like these for example.  They are the ones that don't buy videogame magazines or go on videogame websites or have a significant gaming online presence.  They buy a Wii for Wii Sports because they heard about if from a friend or seen it on Oprah or saw it at a party or whatever but at the end of the day they're just casually into gaming.

 

 

Oh no! Not this arguments again. LOL

And, why didn't you mentioned the Xbox360 or PS3? Are you saying "casualz" don't buy those systems just because of the BluRay player or cool graphics? hahaha

The people you're talking about are not casuals, but new gamers, a new market, and if they have a good experience with videogames they'll probably want more and more of them.



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noname2200 said:

Two good posts from Malstrom today. Here's the second one.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/

It becomes clear that if the hardcore are left to define themselves, then ‘hardcore’ becomes anything they like (New Super Mario Brothers, Tetris, Bomberman, Space Invaders Extreme, etc). Look at this IGN review, by Bozun, of Mega Man 9. Read it and count how many times he says ‘hardcore’.

Done? Well, he uses ‘hardcore’ five times to describe Mega Man 9. There is even this sentence:

And while a trip down memory lane is a nice little nod to the fans, what hardcore gamers really wanted with Mega Man 9 was a true return of that tough-as-nails traditional play we got from games like Mega Man 2.

This is ridiculous. Mega Man 2, even the Japanese version, is not ‘tough-as-nails’. And this is the first time I have heard anyone describe Mega Man 2 as a ‘hardcore’ game. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mega Man 1 might have been ‘hardcore’ back then, but Mega Man 2 unwittingly was a Blue Ocean game. I even said so back in 2006 in the “Drowning in the Blue Ocean” article and placed it along games like World of Warcraft and Doom. It grew its market by solving the contraints on the previous game. Mega Man 2 was not made to ‘compete’ with other games. It was, after all, made in developers’ spare time. Bozun saying Mega Man 2 is ‘hardcore’ sounds like he is using the reasoning of “since I am hardcore and I like this game, therefore, this game must be hardcore”.

Some might say, “But Malstrom! Mega Man 9 is hard! Therefore, it is only for hardcore!” Oh please. Everyone agrees that the early NES games were hard and that the NES users were mostly children. Are you telling me that children, most of whom had little to no experience in video games, were ‘hardcore’ in the 1980s? Of course not. A game being hard does not make it ‘hardcore’. Brain Age is hard. That Sudoku kicks my butt at times. Some of the games with Wii Fit are hard as well.

Hardcore are what Christensen would define as the ‘undershot’ customers. These gamers like the current trajectory of the industry and want graphics to be more beautiful and games to be more sophisticated. Many hardcore who are drunk on nostalgia will look at Mega Man 9 as a childhood dream come true. But the nostalgia-free hardcore will scream in terror about Mega Man 9… and they are doing it.

Mega Man 9 is not a hardcore game. It is a game designed for the lapsed gamers, to those gamers who liked Mega Man in its first iterations. Mega Man 9 is the OPPOSITE of everything the hardcore stands for. Mega Man 9 not only uses a classic gameplay route (i.e. 2d platformer based on arcade action), it intentionally goes backwards in its graphics and sound to an 8-bit style.

Normal people look at Mega Man 9 and will buy it or not with no fuss. Not normal people will scream in rage that Mega Man 9 is destroying all of gaming. You would think that one game, choosing an 8-bit style, should not cause such holy terror from these folks who rage over its graphics. Yet, it does. And there is a reason why.

The trajectory for the industry is well known. The progress of gaming has been with greater graphics, greater sound, and greater sophistication. The ‘hardcore’ believe this trajectory is The Way and see Mega Man 9 as either a scam on Capcom’s part to make a lazy game or as an intentional part to destroy The Way. From their perspective, quality is defined by The Way, by the trajectory, by the technology.

The dirty truth is that quality is defined by the customers.

Developers don’t define quality. Neither do publishers or reviewers. Technology doesn’t define quality. Only customers define what is and what is not quality. The hardcore cannot grasp this idea. They cannot understand how customers can see 8-bit graphics as quality and ’superior’ to 16-bit or HD graphics. The question isn’t how the customers see it as quality, the answer is that they already do so therefore it is quality.

I knew that some game would intentionally break the trajectory and go backwards because that is where the customers were. Whichever game did this would be the Herald of the Apocalypse (the Apocalypse being the collapsing of this trajectory). I thought it would be Mario. But Mario Galaxy obeyed the trajectory. The Herald wasn’t Zelda as Twilight Princess followed the trajectory as well. So did Metroid. So did Bionic Commando in its own way. But the Blue Bomber did not. Intentionally, it broke the trajectory to make the game to satisfy customers… who are ecstatic about the graphic style of Mega Man 9. Hence, Mega Man is the Herald of the Apocalypse. The Hardcore are scared because hey fear that Mega Man 9 will usher in more games that break the trajectory, The Way, as Iga mentioned as well as Capcom has hinted.

It is likely that Mario will break this trajectory with a new 2d WiiWare title soon enough.

What determines if Mega Man 9’s graphics are quality? Why, the customers do. Interestingly, this is the third ‘litmus test’ game that clearly detects whether someone is a hardcore gamer or not. The first was Wii Sports who shepherded in the Wii. The second was Mario Kart Wii which was the first major ‘bridge’ game. And now we have Mega Man 9 who intentionally breaks the standard trajectory all games have obeyed. The funniest thing about these ‘litmus test’ games is that the hardcore, who despised the predecessors, begin holding them up for praise as the pinnacle of the series. We watched hardcore praise Mario Kart: Double Dash as wonderful and amazing. Now, they are praising Mega Man 8 as ‘brilliant’ and ‘how Mega Man should be’. In their gut, these hardcore know that their world is ending as more and more games begin to revolt against The Way, against the trajectory.

With that said, while I think Mega Man 9 will be a success, it will not be the game to top Mega Man 2 or 3. Once the hype washes away, people will see Mega Man 9 more on par with Mega Man 1 than with 2 or 3. Here is why:

The Mega Man games, most obviously, make or break depending on the quality of the Robot Masters. Many people say, “At least we know Mega Man 9 doesn’t have any ridiculous Robot Masters like those in Mega Man 6 or 7 or 8 or etc.” Everyone is buzzed by the hype. Once the hype wears off, people will realize that Mega Man 9 is filled with such Robot Masters.

There is a wonderfully true saying, which I suspect I heard Iwata once said, that what is fun for the developer is not necessarily fun for the gamer. And it works in reverse. What is fun for the gamer is not necessarily fun for the developer. This applies to all creative professions be it writing, acting, music, and so on.

Take Splash Woman which was created by Inafune. First of all, take a look at her. No, don’t look at the character art, look at the in-game. The in-game is all that matters. To hell with the character art. Here is Plug Man as well.

It is said that Splash Woman is the first female Robot Master. Look at her. Prove to me she is female. “What do you mean, Malstrom? She is a woman because it says woman there!” For crying out loud, she is half fish! Aside from the anime staple of large eyes and large mouth reserved for Japanese female characters, there is literally nothing tying her to being a female.

But is she a Robot Master? Take a good look. Does anything about her suggest a robotic appearance? It looks like she could make an appearance in a Disney movie. The key to good Robot Design in the Mega Man series is that it looks like it fits into the Futuristic Robot Mythos. When it fails, you end up with something like Plant Man. You know what Splash Woman reminds me of? Centuar Man. Centaur Man was also beautifully drawn as a sprite. Still, he ended up being one of the worst Robot Masters of the series.

Take Plug Man. Does this character look ‘bad ass’ to you? Or does he appear more like a dork? Think of your favorite Robot Masters and you will always think of someone who looks ‘bad ass’ to you. The name, itself, is ridiculous (just as ‘Socket Man’ or ‘Connection Man’ would be). Look at Plug Man. Capcom doesn’t even bother to make sure the ‘plug’ on his arm stays the same. In that picture, it switches arms!

Inafune built Mega Man 9 asking the wrong question of “Why is Mega Man 2 so loved?” He answers that it is because the game was about fast action. He is correct on that part. The Mega Man classic series got slower, less intense, and became more adventure games than action. Inafune also seems to like Mega Man 1 as well. Mega Man 9 appears to be like 1.5 or, rather, a new version of Mega Man 3.

I can answer Inafune’s question of why Mega Man 2 is so loved easily. It is because it is everyone’s first Mega Man game. It was lightning in a bottle. Everyone is always partial to their first Mega Man game. Mega Man 2 is the most consistent in fun among the classic series.

The question Inafune needs to ask is, “Why was Mega Man 3 very well recieved as a sequel to Mega Man 2 but Mega Mans 4-8 were not?” Most fans debate whether 2 or 3 is better. No one looks at Mega Man 3 as a disapointment as 4-8 were. So what happened in Mega Man 3 that made it a worthy successor?

After Mega Man 3, the Robot Masters almost all began to be remakes of the Robot Masters in the first three games right down to their stages and even weapons. People got tired of playing strained imitations of previous games.

Same shield concept starting from Wood Man = Skull Man, Star Man, Plant Man, Junk Man.
Same water concept starting from Bubble Man = Dive Man, Wave Man, Aqua Man, and now Splash Woman.
Same fire concept starting from Fire Man = Heat Man, Pharaoh Man, Flame Man, Turbo Man, and now Magma Man. Name any Robot Master from Mega Man 9, and I will show how he is a copying a Robot Master from one of the first three games. Plug Man? From Elec Man and Spark Man. Hornet Man? From Snake Man. Tornado Man? From Air Man. Jewel Man? From Gemini Man. (There was already a Crystal Man which was essentially a Jewel Man). The only original Robot Master appears to be Galaxy Man who is fast becoming a fan favorite. The reason why is because he isn’t a stale copycat.

I will hopefully eat my words when Mega Man 9 comes out. However, based on the pattern I have seen, Inafune still doesn’t get it. Mega Man 9 seems more like nostalgia for the developers than anything else. If I am right, then the new Robot Masters will be forgotton very soon. People will not think much of Jewel Man since his weapon has been in almost every other Mega Man game. People will note the inconsistency in the game, of why some stages are pretty hard while others are very easy.

Mega Man 9, as the Herald of the Apocalypse, may unleash new games that break the trajectory the industry has been on. However, it is unlikely to replace Mega Man 2 or 3 as a classic. Hopefully, I’m wrong.

HELP! Im drowning in the Blue Ocean of text!!!

 



Tease.

RolStoppable said:
Legend11 said:
RolStoppable said:

So a lot of today's hardcore gamers are children, because they play a lot of videogames. Since the Wii is the kiddy system, it has currently the highest number of hardcore gamers. Okay.

PM:CE and GL are following the trajectory of the industry with improved graphics, better sound and more sophistication. Mega Man 9 has 8-Bit graphics, 8-Bit sound and removed some of Mega Man's abilities from later games.

How can you know that the article is ridiculous, if you didn't read the article which you just admitted in the second paragraph of your post? You are insulting someone based on (wrong) assumptions.

Yes, a part of the hardcore includes children.  The Gamecube despite having a kiddy image still had many hardcore gamers.  The Wii is different than the Gamecube in that a significant part of the audience fueling it's growth and many of the games beings made for it are casuals. 

Casuals are the people who don't live for videogames or spend a significant amount of time on them.  They're the people you will never find on forums like these for example.  They are the ones that don't buy videogame magazines or go on videogame websites or have a significant gaming online presence.  They buy a Wii for Wii Sports because they heard about if from a friend or seen it on Oprah or saw it at a party or whatever but at the end of the day they're just casually into gaming.

As for how I know his article is ridiculous it's because there are examples that go against what he's trying to claim.  Take PM:CE for example, PM:Legends is an example of the game following the trajectory of the industry.  PM:CE is a game that could have easily been made for older consoles and still looked and played the exact same.  This isn't a slight against PM:CE since it's an incredible game but it's still not following the trajectory of the industy (production costs increasing each generation, etc).

You have sunken really low if you have to defend the Gamecube in order to strengthen your argument.

*EDIT: If the Wii is mostly selling to casuals, why is its attach rate slightly higher than the PS3's? Does that mean that casuals buy just as many games as hardcore gamers or how else do you explain this? END EDIT*

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/p/pacmanchampionshipeditionxboxlivearcade/

High definition graphics, better sound, more sophistication: new game modes, achievements. PM:CE has everything that follows the trajectory of the industry.

Xbox Live does exactly same thing the new Mega Man 9 does, which is to bring back classic gaming to the masses.  Despite launching in 2004 it hasn't changed the industry so it's nonsense to conclude that Mega Man 9 will.

Checkmate.

 



RolStoppable said:
Legend11 said:
RolStoppable said:

You have sunken really low if you have to defend the Gamecube in order to strengthen your argument.

*EDIT: If the Wii is mostly selling to casuals, why is its attach rate slightly higher than the PS3's? Does that mean that casuals buy just as many games as hardcore gamers or how else do you explain this? END EDIT*

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/p/pacmanchampionshipeditionxboxlivearcade/

High definition graphics, better sound, more sophistication: new game modes, achievements. PM:CE has everything that follows the trajectory of the industry.

Xbox Live does exactly same thing the new Mega Man 9, which is to bring back classic gaming to the masses.  Despite launching in 2004 it hasn't changed the industry so it's nonsense to conclude that Mega Man 9 will.

Checkmate.

How many other sequels on XBLA have gone intentionally backwards in the graphics and sound department like Mega Man 9? Remember, MM7 was a SNES game and MM8 was on the PS1 and had voice acting.

So how many games did the same as MM9 is doing?

Pac-Man did it.  Check out Pac-Man World 1, 2, and 3.



I totally agree with everything he wrote..

if you guys would take your time and read it..you would all understand WHAT he means

he never said the game would PHAIL

what he's saying is..that it's not completely what he thought it would be: The new Megaman 3

as in...everything that was GOOD about MM put into it..and all the bad taken OUT of it..

what happend was that MM9 is like a sequel to MM3...same old gameplay..but...same generic bosses..

with a FEW new concepts..and the NEW concepts make the game fun..I dun wanna beat 1 fire boss each time I play MM...it gets repetetive..

create something new..

what he's trying to say..MM9 is not as disrupted as he wished it were