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Kasz216 on 22 September 2008
vlad321 said:
Kasz216 said:

 

 

 

See Quantum Physics.

 

 

 

I knew that was gonna come up, my friend irl always brings it up when I bring up the solidity of math lol. It's a new field, this "randomness" which we see might just be due to the effects of something we have not found yet. Up until several centuries ago Lightning seemed pretty fricken random too, but at least now we know a little better. Give it time and maybe in several centuries (I hope it's not that long) we'll figure out this whole random mess. Took the class last semester and there's some really effing awesome stuff in there. I love Physics almost more than math, eventhough I'm a math/cs major.

That's the point though.  Math in of itself is basically a human interpretation of the world around us.  It isn't perfect.  The evolution of math as we go on,  to add to it and change things to make it work for us at the current time proves it.

If the "randomness" of Quantum Physics is beyond us?  How could one rule out something that would by definition be beyond Quantum Physics.

Multiple dimensions are likely out there we can't even perceive.

No one knows the true origin of religion... No one even has a workable creation model yet.  As such all hypothesis are still open for debate.



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vlad321 on 22 September 2008
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:

 

 

 

But you do realize, even if we could somehow prove empiricism (with empiricism) one day, that until the, you are in the same boat as I; having to assume something is true or not.  We have to take a starting point apart from evidence.  Furthermore, we still are stuck with much more than a reasonable doubt when it comes to concluding that science can show us anything.

Yes, I realize that, but neither am I about to believe something about science just on blind faith, that's the same as religion and I classify such people as religious myself. I'm also not gonna believe science can figure everything out butso far it has been taking steps towards that, very slowly over the centuries but still some steps. Meanwhile the religious preachers have been retreating constantly as science advances and not vice versa. Science does not prove/disprove everything right now but it might in the future, it might not. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

Perhaps there is, but even in this instance it's not so much as the parents playing off the child's gullibility and forcing information down there throats as it is when it comes to eating their veggies; the parent believes in both, and, as such, teaches both.  It's not manipulation.

The parent moght believe in both, but only one will actually assure the wellbeing of the child on this green Earth. Meanwhile atheists have been living and dying since forever without restricted abilities or health problems. At the same children who don't eat their veggies generally don't do as well as thos who do in terms of health.  That's what the big difference is between the two.

 

But how would the parents have known that what they taught was horrid?  They probably had the same assurance of what they taught about religion as they did anything else (and I'm sure there were many things that were taught that we're not religious and yet were horryfing and deadly as well).

It's exactly because the parents don't know whether it's horrid or not that they shouldn't be imprinting their beliefs on their kids. And yes there have been many more non religious things that were horrifying as well, but they would not have existed, or they would have existed to a much smaller scale, if the parents weren't transfering their beliefs over to the new generation.

 

While the Bible certainly doesn't give a cutoff age for salvation,  why risk not telling them as early as possible?  If they died early, and they were at an age where they would be going to hell if they died, then the parent has just let their kid go to the worst place imaginable.

So what is the age at which a person goes to hell? 4? 5? 2?

 

Yes, my parents told me and convinced me from an early age.  Now, I believe in God because I presuppose.

Those were more of rhetorical questions to invoke self reflection, but thank you for answering. I know a lot of people who didn't pick up religion from their parents as well, but it has always been the caase that they pick it up from someone they trust a whole lot.

 

 

 

@tispower:

I'm fairly sure the Europeans also fullfilled some prophecies, like when they arrived and what their horses. It's easy to make things that are happening into prophecies. That's why so many people believe Nostradamus, they see something and make it fit into his prophecies.

@Kasz

I didn't say the randomness is beyond us and it will be so forever, a lot of things were beyond our knowledge at every step of the human race, to continue my previosu example, like lightning. I'm sure back in the day people believed that lightnings were god's sign, especially if they hit somene/thing but now we know better. So let's see where the future takes the human race in terms of this randomness.



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appolose on 22 September 2008
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardn the possible confusion.

 

Yes, I realize that, but neither am I about to believe something about science just on blind faith, that's the same as religion and I classify such people as religious myself. I'm also not gonna believe science can figure everything out butso far it has been taking steps towards that, very slowly over the centuries but still some steps. Meanwhile the religious preachers have been retreating constantly as science advances and not vice versa. Science does not prove/disprove everything right now but it might in the future, it might not. We'll just have to wait and seee

But we cannot actually say that science is getting closer to the truth, nor can we say it does anything; to claim that science is making progess implies that one has observed science making progress, which is circular, because observing science science, effectively.  So there is no way to say science has done anything.

The parent moght believe in both, but only one will actually assure the wellbeing of the child on this green Earth. Meanwhile atheists have been living and dying since forever without restricted abilities or health problems. At the same children who don't eat their veggies generally don't do as well as thos who do in terms of health.  That's what the big difference is between the two.

While the effects of t3h v3gg13s are evident (I use that word notwithstanding the other argument), but why should the parent only concern himself with the physical if he is convinced of a spiritual need? 

 

It's exactly because the parents don't know whether it's horrid or not that they shouldn't be imprinting their beliefs on their kids. And yes there have been many more non religious things that were horrifying as well, but they would not have existed, or they would have existed to a much smaller scale, if the parents weren't transfering their beliefs over to the new generation.

They do think it is good, though, which is effectively why they teach their children anything else that think is right.

And you also mention that bad non-religious teachings would not have existed if the parents hadn't transferred they're ideasdown gernation-after-generation.  That's true, but that would mean the parents shouldn't have transferred any ideas at first (since they would not have known any werebad).  Also, there were probably things taught that no one knew were causing harm, even after long periods of time.  And in that case, no one could have known to stop them.

 

So what is the age at which a person goes to hell? 4? 5? 2?

My point is that a parent should tell their kid as early as possible, lest they run the risk of being too late. 

What's the age or mental stage?  I'm not really sure on that one.

 

Those were more of rhetorical questions to invoke self reflection, but thank you for answering. I know a lot of people who didn't pick up religion from their parents as well, but it has always been the caase that they pick it up from someone they trust a whole lot.

 

I see; of course I should be mindful of my earlier influences on my ideas, escpecially this.  For myself, I think I've thought it out enough, but it never hurts to examine more, huh? 

 

 

 

 

 



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vlad321 on 22 September 2008
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardn the possible confusion.

Same.

 

 

But we cannot actually say that science is getting closer to the truth, nor can we say it does anything; to claim that science is making progess implies that one has observed science making progress, which is circular, because observing science science, effectively.  So there is no way to say science has done anything.

I see your point here, but you can't deny the fact that the advances in medicine, math, electronics, and many other areas which we use in our everyday life right now are not advances in SOMETHING. Since they were disovered and developed by science we label them as scientific advancement.

 

While the effects of t3h v3gg13s are evident (I use that word notwithstanding the other argument), but why should the parent only concern himself with the physical if he is convinced of a spiritual need? 

The spiritual need is exactly one of those things thee shouldn't be teaching they kids about. As I said, atheists die happy and fulfilled all the time and they haven't had problems living. Everything past that is unknown and based on beliefs. the veggies are shown to be needed by endless examples of real-life cases and biology and chemistry are going even deeper to prove it. This goes hand in hand with the above argument. We have observed that the veggies are good, but we have yet to observe that spiritual wellbeing does anything at all, it's just a belief which is what I'm opposed to being taught.


They do think it is good, though, which is effectively why they teach their children anything else that think is right.

And you also mention that bad non-religious teachings would not have existed if the parents hadn't transferred they're ideasdown gernation-after-generation.  That's true, but that would mean the parents shouldn't have transferred any ideas at first (since they would not have known any werebad).  Also, there were probably things taught that no one knew were causing harm, even after long periods of time.  And in that case, no one could have known to stop them.

Sadly you are right, they do think it's good and this is where the problems arise. Maybe it's just me, but I call that bad parenting. I'd want my chldren to have opinions other than mine, to come to their conclusions of their own accord. If they are different than mine great, if they are the same, even better ;). Just outright conforming our children to resemble us leads to very little, or none at all, human progress. If we're all the same we end up thinking the same and nothing new will come out of it.

 

 

My point is that a parent should tell their kid as early as possible, lest they run the risk of being too late. 

What's the age or mental stage?  I'm not really sure on that one.

That's what I'm saying, would god really value someone who was manipulated by his parents into following him as much as a person who chose to follow god eventhough they were given so many other options? I have no idea how he thinks but if it were me those people who started to believe past the age of 13 would seem a lot more worthwhile of my blessings than those just following blindly what their parents told them to believe.

 

I see; of course I should be mindful of my earlier influences on my ideas, escpecially this.  For myself, I think I've thought it out enough, but it never hurts to examine more, huh? 

Most people I've met haven't at all. It's astounding the number of people I've met who keep thinking they believe in god and after a little talk I realize they only believe in what their parents/priests taught them, not in god himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

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appolose on 22 September 2008
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

 

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardon the possible confusion.

Same.

Again.

 

 

I see your point here, but you can't deny the fact that the advances in medicine, math, electronics, and many other areas which we use in our everyday life right now are not advances in SOMETHING. Since they were disovered and developed by science we label them as scientific advancement.

To be sure, they certainly appear that way, but that does not negate the problem that one has to rely on seeing more examples of science ("seeing", effectively) in order to justify them.  Although I might like doing that, it certainly offers no assurance as to the it's validity.  For all we know, every advancement or confirmation of a theory could be the result of some manipulation of that vat-brain, or worse.

The spiritual need is exactly one of those things thee shouldn't be teaching they kids about. As I said, atheists die happy and fulfilled all the time and they haven't had problems living. Everything past that is unknown and based on beliefs. the veggies are shown to be needed by endless examples of real-life cases and biology and chemistry are going even deeper to prove it. This goes hand in hand with the above argument. We have observed that the veggies are good, but we have yet to observe that spiritual wellbeing does anything at all, it's just a belief which is what I'm opposed to being taught.

I see what you're saying, but that would depend on what the parent thinks has been observed or proven (notwithstanding), and many are completely assured (justifiably or not) of what they believe spiritually.

 

Sadly you are right, they do think it's good and this is where the problems arise. Maybe it's just me, but I call that bad parenting. I'd want my chldren to have opinions other than mine, to come to their conclusions of their own accord. If they are different than mine great, if they are the same, even better ;)  Oh yeah, much better XD. Just outright conforming our children to resemble us leads to very little, or none at all, human progress. If we're all the same we end up thinking the same and nothing new will come out of it.

I think this would hinge upon the correctness (is that a word?) of the above paragraph; I would posit that the consequences of that idead would mean we shouldn't teach our children anything, lest we be hindering progress.  However, teaching them what we know and think can also foster progress and advancement, as is evident in technology and the like.

 

That's what I'm saying, would god really value someone who was manipulated by his parents into following him as much as a person who chose to follow god eventhough they were given so many other options? I have no idea how he thinks but if it were me those people who started to believe past the age of 13 would seem a lot more worthwhile of my blessings than those just following blindly what their parents told them to believe.

And that's probably true; he probably would like someone who was able to believe in him afer having been exposed to otheror no religious ideas.  However, it is made clear in Christianity that believing in him is first and foremost the most important thing, and thus whatever blessing a person may receive for having gone through much would be supplanted by the necessity of them not going to hell. 

 

Most people I've met haven't at all. It's astounding the number of people I've met who keep thinking they believe in god and after a little talk I realize they only believe in what their parents/priests taught them, not in god himself.

Yeah, I'll agree with that; I too have met a lot of Christians who have put next to no thought of why the believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote tower!

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
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vlad321 on 22 September 2008
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardon the possible confusion.

Same.

Again. <-This (Lateral expansion)

 

 

 

To be sure, they certainly appear that way, but that does not negate the problem that one has to rely on seeing more examples of science ("seeing", effectively) in order to justify them.  Although I might like doing that, it certainly offers no assurance as to the it's validity.  For all we know, every advancement or confirmation of a theory could be the result of some manipulation of that vat-brain, or worse.

Yes indeed it could. But from what we see and know it was due science. If you read my post on the beliefs up above then you'll see that I'm willing to accept our existance is due to something creating us, I just dislike religion as it is and how it affects our world.

 

I see what you're saying, but that would depend on what the parent thinks has been observed or proven (notwithstanding), and many are completely assured (justifiably or not) of what they believe spiritually.

I fully agree with that, I just wish that is how the world worked since children who have been manipulated by the parents eventually grow up. Then the ideas of the parents are born anew and a cycle of destruction (may not be the right word) keeps on going. Humans just don't need this. Enough has happened for people to see what should and shouldn't be impressed on children.

 

 

I think this would hinge upon the correctness (is that a word?) of the above paragraph; I would posit that the consequences of that idead would mean we shouldn't teach our children anything, lest we be hindering progress.  However, teaching them what we know and think can also foster progress and advancement, as is evident in technology and the like.

Correctness is a word and I was just kidding with having them think like me. I'd much rather have them completely independent from me when they grow up (I only use smilys to signifying jokes). And I don't mean don't teach them anything, they obviously have to learn things, but as with the veggies and beliefs, there is a difference between learning math, science, a language (wherever they live), poetry, and such and teaching them about god and religion. One has the benefits that the child will live a decent life, while the other has yet to show any positive or negative feedback on life, or afterlife if it does exist.

 

And that's probably true; he probably would like someone who was able to believe in him afer having been exposed to otheror no religious ideas.  However, it is made clear in Christianity that believing in him is first and foremost the most important thing, and thus whatever blessing a person may receive for having gone through much would be supplanted by the necessity of them not going to hell. 

Very well, but all that does not mean that children should be preached to, if they find and choose god then they will find him when they are older as well. The whole thing just seems like parents are "cheating" their children's entrance to heaven. Let's teach them early before they can resist and they are sure to go to heaven if they stick with it. It just seems like a shortcut to what belief is meant to be, that is, something you reached the conclusion to by yourself, not based on other's beliefs. This goes with the paragraphh underneath. Is it really belief in god if the only reason you believe in him is becaause your parents taught you that way?

 

Yeah, I'll agree with that; I too have met a lot of Christians who have put next to no thought of why the believe.

Well then, we can ignore this sectino from now on since we're in agreement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote tower!

 

I wonder if the mods are carefully looking at this to see whether we're flaming or not....

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

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RCTjunkie on 22 September 2008

Look at sig.



WHO IS JESUS REALLY?

llewdebkram on 22 September 2008
d21lewis said:
I believe that God exists because my daughter is an angel.

 

The devil used to be an angel (cherub)!!



Strategyking92 on 22 September 2008

I believe god exists because it is logical. Something cannot be created from nothing, unless it has always been.
Oh, and also, there is evidence. My personal blessings, and others.



And that's the only thing I need is *this*. I don't need this or this. Just this PS4... And this gaming PC. - The PS4 and the Gaming PC and that's all I need... And this Xbox 360. - The PS4, the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360, and that's all I need... And these PS3's. - The PS4, and these PS3's, and the Gaming PC, and the Xbox 360... And this Nintendo DS. - The PS4, this Xbox 360, and the Gaming PC, and the PS3's, and that's all *I* need. And that's *all* I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one... I need this. - The Gaming PC and PS4, and Xbox 360, and thePS3's . Well what are you looking at? What do you think I'm some kind of a jerk or something! - And this. That's all I need.

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ManusJustus on 22 September 2008
Strategyking92 said:
I believe god exists because it is logical. Something cannot be created from nothing, unless it has always been.

Who created god?  So you say not everything has to be created.  Then why does the universe have to be created?