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RCTjunkie on 22 September 2008
ManusJustus said:
Strategyking92 said:
I believe god exists because it is logical. Something cannot be created from nothing, unless it has always been.

Who created god?  So you say not everything has to be created.  Then why does the universe have to be created?

 

 @ Who created God: http://www.rationalfreethinker.com/sermon/TheSingularityWhoisAgentX.pdf

@ Why the universe has to have been created: Same article



WHO IS JESUS REALLY?

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RCTjunkie on 22 September 2008

The article is long and tedious, but it makes excellent points.



WHO IS JESUS REALLY?

ManusJustus on 22 September 2008

Thats a logical fallacy. Either God and the Universe needs a creator or God and the Universe do not need a creator. You are claiming that the Universe needs a creator but God doesn't, treating them differently to arrive at your desired conclusion.

You are also assuming that the Universe began at the Big Bang, when that is not true (we cant know for sure since we theoretically cant see past the Big Bang). Space-time would have existed before the Big Bang, with the Big Bang itself being the explosion of a large amount of energy from a single point in space.



appolose on 22 September 2008
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardon the possible confusion.

Same.

Again. <-This (Lateral expansion) x2

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed it could. But from what we see and know it was due science. If you read my post on the beliefs up above then you'll see that I'm willing to accept our existance is due to something creating us, I just dislike religion as it is and how it affects our world.

True, but while we may have derived it from science, that does not make it true.  That is the success argument again; we cannot use what we perceive as progress in knowledge as justifying science.  And while it may be true that we might have gotten nowhere if not for science, that could very well be untrue as well; there is simply no way to distinguish one from the other.

I understand you're not arguing against the possiblilty of a creator, though.

 

I fully agree with that, I just wish that is how the world worked since children who have been manipulated by the parents eventually grow up. Then the ideas of the parents are born anew and a cycle of destruction (may not be the right word) keeps on going. Humans just don't need this. Enough has happened for people to see what should and shouldn't be impressed on children.

I can understand that; it's just that the risk of not doing otherwise weighs heavily upon those who do teach such things.  And perhaps the world might have been better off without certain religions, and perhaps worse off without others.

 

Correctness is a word and I was just kidding with having them think like me. I'd much rather have them completely independent from me when they grow up (I only use smilys to signifying jokes).

Ergh, sorry, I knew you were joking; my comment wasn't very clear.

And I don't mean don't teach them anything, they obviously have to learn things, but as with the veggies and beliefs, there is a difference between learning math, science, a language (wherever they live), poetry, and such and teaching them about god and religion. One has the benefits that the child will live a decent life, while the other has yet to show any positive or negative feedback on life, or afterlife if it does exist.

Perhaps that would be a better position for you personally, but  other's may feel too strongly about their convictions to withhold them from their children.  But that, of course, may go with the other argument.

 

Very well, but all that does not mean that children should be preached to, if they find and choose god then they will find him when they are older as well. The whole thing just seems like parents are "cheating" their children's entrance to heaven. Let's teach them early before they can resist and they are sure to go to heaven if they stick with it. It just seems like a shortcut to what belief is meant to be, that is, something you reached the conclusion to by yourself, not based on other's beliefs. This goes with the paragraphh underneath. Is it really belief in god if the only reason you believe in him is becaause your parents taught you that way?

I would posit that a blind faith would still qualify as what is needed (Biblically speaking).  Much of what we are taught as children comes from such sources, and those things we still hold today, and we certainly believe in those.

 

 

Well then, we can ignore this sectino from now on since we're in agreement.

I concur

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote tower!

 

I wonder if the mods are carefully looking at this to see whether we're flaming or not....

 

 

That'd be a lot to go through though... maybe they'll tell us to stop derailing the thread :).

 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
Maynard_Tool on 22 September 2008
Strategyking92 said:
I believe god exists because it is logical. Something cannot be created from nothing, unless it has always been.
Oh, and also, there is evidence. My personal blessings, and others.

 

Mmmm it's been already proven that matter/energy cannot be neither destroyed nor created.The amount of matter doesnt change, so "God" couldn't have created the  universe. And its true, something cannot be created from nothing....thats why god didnt create the universe. The universe has been always around. I dont see how can you say that the existence of God is logical, and that there is evidence, when no one, including you, cant provide that "Evidence." ITs just pure BS

 

I mean, whats your evidence? Can someone, anyone....really show me that "God" exists?? Can anyone prove his/her/it existence???? Im waiting..i've been waiting a long time.



03/10/09 HUGE day in my life:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=63437&page=1

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appolose on 22 September 2008
ManusJustus said:

Thats a logical fallacy. Either God and the Universe needs a creator or God and the Universe do not need a creator. You are claiming that the Universe needs a creator but God doesn't, treating them differently to arrive at your desired conclusion.

You are also assuming that the Universe began at the Big Bang, when that is not true (we cant know for sure since we theoretically cant see past the Big Bang). Space-time would have existed before the Big Bang, with the Big Bang itself being the explosion of a large amount of energy from a single point in space.

 

That does not necessarily follow; saying one needs a creator does not imply the other does.  For example, if a salesman sells a car, does it follow that someone sold the salesman?

The reason why the universe needs a nonphysical explanation is derived from our own understanding of science (or so the article contends (I believe, I have not read it))).  God doesn't need a creator because the physcial reality has no bearing on him.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
luinil on 22 September 2008

Maynard_Tool I am glad you are waiting with an open mind. Keep it open and one day you will fall flat on your face in front of the evidence as most of us have done.

I too believe in God. The Christian God. There is no other by logical definition. Though I try to not step on other people's toes on the subject as it is a highly personal and touchy subject.

I cannot prove to anyone, who will not accept my experiences as facts, that God exists. It is a highly subjective thing, this evidence. One person says "ZOMG! MIRACLE! PRAISE JESUS!" while another person says, "Meh, not sure yet, but probably explainable."

If you were to take a Calvinist's perspective, everyone is predestined to either accept Christ or not to accept Him, then no amount of any evidence will persuade a person who is predestined to believe otherwise. So according to that, one day you either will believe the Bible as truth and fact or not. If so, then great. If not... I do not want to be you (as viewed from my beliefs).

I fall somewhere in the middle between Calvinism and the non-Calvinists. Not sure exactly where, but I think everyone has a shot at [eternal life], but not everyone will choose the path that allows them to get their shot.

To the rest of brothers/sisters here: What about speaking in tongues? Do you believe it? Do you practice it? I believed in it for some time but not until this past year did I ever practice it. Sorry if this opens a can of worms in this thread... >_



Luinil - Marisa (FE:SS). She's calm, collected, and really likes swords. (Courtesy of Words of Wisdom)
Tag: luinil - "Liberalism is a mental disorder." - Thanks fkusumot!
Maynard_Tool on 22 September 2008

Well yes, i have an open mind. I was "catholic" for several years, thanks to my family's beliefs. But i realized that its just....imo, it makes no sense. People claim that there is a god, yet its impossible to prove it. Still, they believe all this stuff around it, and they want other people to believe it too.

Im sorry to say this, but im the one that doesnt want to be you, and i actually feel sorry.

And again, its not that i will not accept it. When someone can actually prove god's existence, i'll gladly accept it exists, i mean is logical (this it is); but i will also have to hear god's "version" about what he thinks....because all that surrounds god is a "human product."

That's the main reason i cant believe in god...everything has been made up by humans....there's nothing holy about religion or god, or everything that has to do with it..."its just a product of human weakness" (Albert Einstein)



03/10/09 HUGE day in my life:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=63437&page=1

vlad321 on 23 September 2008
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:
appolose said:
vlad321 said:

I switched the bolded parts to be me talking; pardon the possible confusion.

Same.

Again. <-This (Lateral expansion) x2

 

 

 

 

Yes indeed it could. But from what we see and know it was due science. If you read my post on the beliefs up above then you'll see that I'm willing to accept our existance is due to something creating us, I just dislike religion as it is and how it affects our world.

True, but while we may have derived it from science, that does not make it true.  That is the success argument again; we cannot use what we perceive as progress in knowledge as justifying science.  And while it may be true that we might have gotten nowhere if not for science, that could very well be untrue as well; there is simply no way to distinguish one from the other.

I understand you're not arguing against the possiblilty of a creator, though.

 

I fully agree with that, I just wish that is how the world worked since children who have been manipulated by the parents eventually grow up. Then the ideas of the parents are born anew and a cycle of destruction (may not be the right word) keeps on going. Humans just don't need this. Enough has happened for people to see what should and shouldn't be impressed on children.

I can understand that; it's just that the risk of not doing otherwise weighs heavily upon those who do teach such things.  And perhaps the world might have been better off without certain religions, and perhaps worse off without others.

 

Correctness is a word and I was just kidding with having them think like me. I'd much rather have them completely independent from me when they grow up (I only use smilys to signifying jokes).

Ergh, sorry, I knew you were joking; my comment wasn't very clear.

And I don't mean don't teach them anything, they obviously have to learn things, but as with the veggies and beliefs, there is a difference between learning math, science, a language (wherever they live), poetry, and such and teaching them about god and religion. One has the benefits that the child will live a decent life, while the other has yet to show any positive or negative feedback on life, or afterlife if it does exist.

Perhaps that would be a better position for you personally, but  other's may feel too strongly about their convictions to withhold them from their children.  But that, of course, may go with the other argument.

 

Very well, but all that does not mean that children should be preached to, if they find and choose god then they will find him when they are older as well. The whole thing just seems like parents are "cheating" their children's entrance to heaven. Let's teach them early before they can resist and they are sure to go to heaven if they stick with it. It just seems like a shortcut to what belief is meant to be, that is, something you reached the conclusion to by yourself, not based on other's beliefs. This goes with the paragraphh underneath. Is it really belief in god if the only reason you believe in him is becaause your parents taught you that way?

I would posit that a blind faith would still qualify as what is needed (Biblically speaking).  Much of what we are taught as children comes from such sources, and those things we still hold today, and we certainly believe in those.

 

 

Well then, we can ignore this sectino from now on since we're in agreement.

I concur

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote tower!

 

I wonder if the mods are carefully looking at this to see whether we're flaming or not....

 

 

That'd be a lot to go through though... maybe they'll tell us to stop derailing the thread :).

 

Gonna save this for tomorrow cause I have to finish up studying for my Computer Architecture class. But I won't leave without a few quick notes here and there!

#appolose

No one sold the salesman, but he must have been created from somewhere. When a mommy and a daddy really really love each other....;)

@luinil

I don't know what the "logic" that leads to the fact that "The Christian God" is the only logical option, but I can tell you right now that your logic has some major fallacies in it, and I don't even have to know what it is. Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and all other religions have as much claim to their gods as you do to your god so please stop sounding like an ignorant religious fool and open up your mind for a little while. You should try it out, you might just discover things you haven't before.

Also according to Calvinism, if I'm not mistaken, god's "elect" can be found because they would be living a good, prosperous, and wealthy life on Earth. Poverty is a sign that the person will go to hell. That's why Calvinists were so wealthy for a good amount after the Reformation. Problem here is that on average atheists have 10% higher income than religious folk. So by your standards the religious folk go burn in hell and the atheists go to heaven? That's where your so called logic has led us. Next time please think before you post.

 



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

luinil on 23 September 2008
vlad321 said

@luinil

I don't know what the "logic" that leads to the fact that "The Christian God" is the only logical option, but I can tell you right now that your logic has some major fallacies in it, and I don't even have to know what it is. Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and all other religions have as much claim to their gods as you do to your god so please stop sounding like an ignorant religious fool and open up your mind for a little while. You should try it out, you might just discover things you haven't before.

Also according to Calvinism, if I'm not mistaken, god's "elect" can be found because they would be living a good, prosperous, and wealthy life on Earth. Poverty is a sign that the person will go to hell. That's why Calvinists were so wealthy for a good amount after the Reformation. Problem here is that on average atheists have 10% higher income than religious folk. So by your standards the religious folk go burn in hell and the atheists go to heaven? That's where your so called logic has led us. Next time please think before you post.

 

 

The logic is simple. If I believe in what my God says, the other religions are false. That is the only logic that I was referring to. Anything beyond that is simply misunderstood by the reader.

I never said I was a Calvinist did I? Nor that I adhere to their beliefs. I simply used some beliefs within the Christian Community that some people say this. I even said that I was not a Calvinist. I don't know why you went out of your way to debate me on this when I simple stated a few things according to my point of view in a very non-confrontational way. O.o

Maybe anything related to religion is confrontational to you? /shrug



Luinil - Marisa (FE:SS). She's calm, collected, and really likes swords. (Courtesy of Words of Wisdom)
Tag: luinil - "Liberalism is a mental disorder." - Thanks fkusumot!