I actually don't know of anyone who didn't at least do some raiding in WoW. Also Arenas are exactly that, you pick your allies and your enemies pick their allies. Your post only shows how much you know about the game, which is nothing. Yes it's brigh and colorful and easy to pick up. Every Blizzard game is like that, easy to learn and to enjoy, it's just hard to be actually good at it. I know people who don't play any other games than Halo and Gears of War and just do that endlessly. Let's classify them as casual games as well under your definition. That will make all the Wii owners real happy. What Blizzard games do is basically selling to casuals and turning them into hardcores. I blame Warcraft II for the gamer that I am.

The gameplay of the game is actually very complex, what, with all the stats and stuff and gear. Actual raiding, 10+ people doing an encounter over and over can hardly be calssified as casual. Like shio said, MMORPG's are the very definition of hardcore.

Once again, what makes MMORPGs the "definition" of hardcore? Diablo destroys WoW in terms of complexity.Every single MMORPG that I have played (and I did play WoW for about a week before giving up due to extreme boredom) has a very simple pattern of stretching out and diluting RPG experience. They usually have very little story, very simplistic gameplay, poor graphics and levelling system that relies on hours of grinding. I would accept MMORPGs as hardcore if they truly cared about giving a good gaming experience, all they care about is suckering in casual gamers for a long time so they can milk monthly fees off of them.

I will never allow MMORPGs to be called hardcore, because then I would have to accept that travelling for hours, grinding for hours, farming for hours, and almost complete reliance on equipment is somehow good game design.

Those sales don't track digital download sales through steam and other services so aren't a perfect representation of the PC market.

I'm gonna stop this debate since you obviously don't know wtf you are talking about at all. Played it for a week? No wonder you think Diablo II is more complex. I played Oblivion for 10 mins and hell, Diablo is more complex than Oblivion as well imo. Wow's art direction is still better than a lot of games that are still coming out, and it's about 4-5 years old. It's gameplay is only simplistic if you don't know what you are talking about, but I do agree there isn't much of a story. Just a general direction to explain why evertyhing is happening and why you are doign what you are doing. Anything past that is just plain ignorance on MMO's in general and I don't see a point to even bother addressing it.

Why are they the definition of hardcore? Well, even though I haven't played in more than a year, I can still probably write up explanatoins for all the different mechanics involved in the game, and for each just the general overview will take up several paragraphs. Healing mechanics, Dps, tanking, PVP arena mechanics, aggro mechanic, etc. Especially in wow those are some of the most refined and balanced out mechanics out of all other mmorpgs so far, maybe warhammer will be different. Meanwhile what does Halo have? The machanic for shooting your gun? MGS? Mechanic for staying out of the light and....? God of War? No special game mechanics period.

@Vlad31

Play any game long enough and it becomes hardcore. Yes I can call WoW casual just like you can call Halo casual, both games are very easy to get into and appeal to amateur gamers
However I also know about the depth of Halo just like you know about the depth of WoW. I could write a book on the intricacies of competitive Halo:CE games. That is the genius of both Halo and WoW, easy to get into but almost impossible to master

So in conclusion yes both WoW and Halo are casual but that doesn't negate the depth in both games.

So wait.

Just so i'm getting this right. Spore was number 2 on the sales charts... the week before it was released?

I've already gotten used to SIMs stuff and WoW mopping the charts Nintendo style but holy cow, Warcraft III still sells?

NOthing new but it sure shows a very different picture of what I think 'PC gamers' actually play...y'know, like FPSs and stuff?

^ Wrath is coming out in 2 months. I'm sure that helped out all the sales the same way Warhead helped out Crysis. I was genuinely surprised to see Crysis on there at all.