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Forums - General - Russia recognizes breakaway Georgian regions but says US is causing tension

Kasz216 on 28 August 2008
vlad321 said:
@Kasz
I'm Not arguing that the Russians didn't do anything. I'm just arguing against the opposition of Russia's move. I really can't think of many that have been peaceful and haven't messed up in their foreign policies. It just so happens that Russia's and US's screw ups are a lot more recent and since people don't like history as much as others forget about previous events.

As for the atomic bomb. In war, I expect military personnel to die, as bad as that sounds. I expect someone in a navy ship to be gone. On the other hand I don't expect that kids in school will get obliterated by a nuclear bomb. I don't expect people going to the market to get torn apart.

True however it seems rather hard to argue that the bomb hitting japan was the less favorable of the two options after the "Japanese miracle".

Also back then it was actually perfectly acceptable and expected for cities populations to be bombed.  Causing fear to demoralzie your opponents was a common strategy.  For example the germans rarely targeted the military in their air campaigns vs England.

In the modern era this seems horrible, back then it would be fine.


And once again.  Russia's move is the most egrigious of current events included the acts that the US commited recently in Iraq because it was Russia that caused the problem in the first place.

This georgian situation is much worse then things like Iraq or Kosovo due to the fact that the conflict only exists because of the intentional racial strife caused by Russia.  Which wasn't a recent event.  It was an event that happened far in the past.

It's even worse when you consider the fact that Georgia is a democracy... a government run by the people.



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vlad321 on 28 August 2008

The fact that the two provinces' populations are half Russian does not automatically make it Russia's fault for causing strife, there just happens to be a lot of Russians left over from the Soviet era. Also I hate to break it to you, but a Democracy is a government system that's run by the people once every several years for a few months.



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Kasz216 on 28 August 2008
vlad321 said:
The fact that the two provinces' populations are half Russian does not automatically make it Russia's fault for causing strife, there just happens to be a lot of Russians left over from the Soviet era. Also I hate to break it to you, but a Democracy is a government system that's run by the people once every several years for a few months.

What gives you the idea that the two provinces populations are half russian?

There are very few Russians in those provinces.  There are almost as many Armenians is South Ossetia as there are Russians.

Gergorians and Ossetians are very ethnically different from russians and lived in peace and harmony long before the russians every annexed Georgia.

The conflict exists because it was Russian and Soviet Union policy to increade racial pride and racism to make sure everybody watched everybody else and so that racial groups would not join together to fight their opressors because they would hate each other more.

The best way for an unjust ruling class to stay in power is to isolate the larger opressed group by splitting it up into different segments that hate each other.  You can see there are racial problems all over the former soviet sattelite states where there used to be none.

Heck there is another war going on in the South Caucus no one is even covering do to the russia's meddling.



SnesTea on 28 August 2008

PS360ForTheWin said:

I invite you all to World War III.

 

Fixed.



kirby007 on 29 August 2008
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
The fact that the two provinces' populations are half Russian does not automatically make it Russia's fault for causing strife, there just happens to be a lot of Russians left over from the Soviet era. Also I hate to break it to you, but a Democracy is a government system that's run by the people once every several years for a few months.

What gives you the idea that the two provinces populations are half russian?

There are very few Russians in those provinces.  There are almost as many Armenians is South Ossetia as there are Russians.

Gergorians and Ossetians are very ethnically different from russians and lived in peace and harmony long before the russians every annexed Georgia.

The conflict exists because it was Russian and Soviet Union policy to increade racial pride and racism to make sure everybody watched everybody else and so that racial groups would not join together to fight their opressors because they would hate each other more.

The best way for an unjust ruling class to stay in power is to isolate the larger opressed group by splitting it up into different segments that hate each other.  You can see there are racial problems all over the former soviet sattelite states where there used to be none.

Heck there is another war going on in the South Caucus no one is even covering do to the russia's meddling.

at that point I stopped reading...



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Jackson50 on 29 August 2008
Esmoreit said:
Jackson50 said:
Esmoreit said:
StanGable said:
I think it is the right time for the U.S. to go and kick some ass! We need to put European nations back in their place!

Would that include western Europe, Stan? Please think or elaborate before you post standard-idiot rethoric.

Also Rock-On: one of the reasons that Putin is so popular is that he's one of the few Russians that don't drink.

I read an opinionated letter this morning in a newspaper where someone indeed pointed out that the acknowledgement of Abchazië and S.Ossetia is also a statement against the US/EU's acknowledgement of the indepence of Kosovo. The writer even said that it's hypocrite for the EU/US to berate Russia for doing the same thing now within Georgia.

But, this is definatly not the same thing. When Kosovo demanded independence from Serbia, they did so through politics, backed by the UN and with no blood at all. Neither the US or EU stepped in with millitary force, and thus did not occupy large parts of Serbia to "aide" Kosovo. And again, there was no blood involved when Kosovo gained independence.  

 

Declaring independence through political means is largely impertinent in regards to the legitimacy of the declaration, and it does not give a nation the right to declare independence. There are usually three circumstances that are considered when determining the legitimacy of a nation's declaration of independence. The problem with Kosovo is that it displays the circumstances of a nation that can legally declare independence, but taken from another point of view, it does not display those circumstances. That is why there is such a divide in the world over whether Kosovo's independence is legal or not. Then there is the dispute over the meaning of UN Resolution 1244 which reaffirms the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Serbia, but also authorizes the UN to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status. Then we have Russia's ascertation that Kosovo serves as a precedent for the resolution of other secessionist disputes. The US and most of Western Europe do not believe it sets a precedent. This is why the move by Russia is such a provocative move; it is forcing the international order to decide on whether the Kosovar resolution is precedent or not.

 

 

(And Vlad)

I know and that is why the Russian move is a scary one - they do not abide to international rule. I myself would be all in favor of an indepent Abchasia and S.Ossetia as long as all parties went through the motions of getting that independence as stipulated by UN policy. Like Kosovo has. Really, one resolution should never apply to every situation. Every independence, or merger should be considered individually. And taking up arms to gain independence should be nationally handled (by Georgia, as they did though wrongfully), other nations should still not interfere unless asked for and definatly not take up arms in the process.

On you're first paragraph, I'd like to know what circumstances and what conflicting views before I react.

The conflict with Russia and the lack of recognition from other nations regarding Kosovo are because of the means in which Kosovo obtained its independence. It is true that Kosovo's independence may have been legal, but it may also have been illegal. UN Resolution 1244 explicitly recognizes the FRY's (Serbia is the recognized successor state) sovereignty over Kosovo. Kosovo's independence could also violate the Helsinki Final Act of which most of the nations embroiled in this controversey are signatories of. That is why so many view this as a dangerous precedent.

If I were allowed to provide a solution to the situation, I would suggest that the US and the European powers pressure Kosovo into accepting Serbia's offer of "enhanced autonomy" and that Georgia would accept the same for both Abkhazia and S. Ossetia. This may not be a final solution, but it would allow for a better gauge of Russia's true intentions.

 



Kasz216 on 29 August 2008
kirby007 said:
Kasz216 said:
vlad321 said:
The fact that the two provinces' populations are half Russian does not automatically make it Russia's fault for causing strife, there just happens to be a lot of Russians left over from the Soviet era. Also I hate to break it to you, but a Democracy is a government system that's run by the people once every several years for a few months.

What gives you the idea that the two provinces populations are half russian?

There are very few Russians in those provinces.  There are almost as many Armenians is South Ossetia as there are Russians.

Gergorians and Ossetians are very ethnically different from russians and lived in peace and harmony long before the russians every annexed Georgia.

The conflict exists because it was Russian and Soviet Union policy to increade racial pride and racism to make sure everybody watched everybody else and so that racial groups would not join together to fight their opressors because they would hate each other more.

The best way for an unjust ruling class to stay in power is to isolate the larger opressed group by splitting it up into different segments that hate each other.  You can see there are racial problems all over the former soviet sattelite states where there used to be none.

Heck there is another war going on in the South Caucus no one is even covering do to the russia's meddling.

at that point I stopped reading...

Why?  It's true.  It's almost all Georgian and Ossetian, and like 2% Russian, 1.2% Armenian.  Unless you count the ossetians who were given russian passports the last 6 years or so "russians".  Which not even the Russians consider the Ossetians Russians officially.

It's all ethnic Georgians and Ossetians.

Both groups the Ossetians and Georgians lived there well before Georgia was annexed by the the russians.