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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo is worth more than Sony!

Bodhesatva on 27 June 2007

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Roondar on 27 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
ssj12 said:
Lingyis said:
ssj12 said:
The general fact that they passed Sony makes no sense. Sony makes way more products that Nintendo doesnt. Sony makes computers, TVs, CD Players, Movies, owns a music company, makes car audio, stereos, game consoles, and handhelds. Nintendo made board games (do they still do this?) then moved to consoles and handhelds. Nintendo's stock is nothing more then inflated stock that will crash down like the Chinese stock market eventually.

a) nobody is saying "general" fact. it's just one measure--but an important one.

b) you're looking at revenue. if revenue is all that matters, GM or Ford would be worth a lot more.

c) inflated stock price: that's your opinion. i've thought for years Google and Apple stock are way overvalued, and nothing has stopped them yet. and now they're both worth about 3 times as much as Sony. not saying Nintendo can keep growing forever, just saying that your guess, my guess, and everybody's guess "average out" to the current stock price, and nobody knows what the future hold.

 

the market cap is a non-intuitive measure. i remember many years ago when Microsoft first passed big blue, aka IBM in stock market capitalization, many people had similar discussions. they say, "it makes no sense", "Microsoft stock will fall", "IBM still have way bigger revenue, way more employees, they just need to turn it around". guess what, it stayed that way. and even today, IBM has double Microsoft's revenue and 4 times as many employees. Microsoft simple is more PROFITABLE. today, Google has a bigger market cap, i.e. "more valuable" than IBM--does that make any sense? hey, that's what market cap is. sometimes it's non-sensible, but to some, it's more than sensible, otherwise they wouldn't be valuing the company at that price. that's how equities work.

sony will probably do okay. the flat panel business is going through a boom right now, and apparently people are still slow to react. as long as the PS3 business starts recovering, they'll do more than okay. of course, bad things can still happen, like the chinese marginalizing the flat panel market. but sony appears to be selling on the back of quality once again, and that's something the chinese can't assault anytime soon. sony seems like it's starting to get back on its feet, but that's just my opinion.


since you brought up microsoft. Im still honestly shocked their corporation hasnt fallen in on itself. Especially since they were so nice to copy OSX completely with Vista. I would have figured investors would have taken notice on some illegal activities there.


Microsoft is head and shoulders above Sony AND Nintendo. While you can argue that Sony has more revenue, Nintendo has more profits, Sony may be undervalued, Nintendo overvalued.. yadda, yadda. Microsoft beats both Sony and Nintendo in almost every concievable category: Market Cap, Profits, Revenue, and way, way more Financial Reserves. 

I think one could reasonably argue that Sony is still a bigger and more important than Nintendo is, on the whole. But there is no question that Microsoft is bigger than both of them. Even with possible qualms about Vista, that's not changing.


Ermm, Microsoft is indeed beating Sony in many categories. But revenue is definitely not one of them ;)

(MS revenue: $44.3 billion (2006), Sony revenue: $63.98 billion (2006))

Anyway, if you are to look at just the gameside of things, I'm pretty sure the current ranking (overall, not just next-gen) at this time would be:

1) Nintendo, 2) Sony, 3) Microsoft

With Microsoft currently closing in on Sony and Nintendo overshadowing zee entire world in a shroud of curiously Mario-shaped darkneszzz! (Assuming you don't root for the big N that is)



ssj12 on 27 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:
Lingyis said:
ssj12 said:
 
Microsoft might be bigger money wise but if you check their stock value thats a whole different story.

 

how long till google passes Microsoft? I know Google stock is like $150 a share. Microsoft when I checked 2 weeks ago was like $25


man, you really are clueless. okay, here goes...

stock price per share is essentially meaningless. it's market capitalization--price MULTIPLIED by number of shares.

google market cap ~ $160 bln. microsoft ~$290 bln.

by your reasoning, berkshire hathaway, with a stock price of $100,000, would be worth 4,000 times more than microsoft.

EDIT: i checked, berkshire hathaway market cap around $165bln. hmm, around google market cap. never thought of them that way...


Your math is absolutely correct, and SSJ should read it (SSJ, this is how market capitalization and overall worth are calculated). But come on, not everyone knows this stuff Lingyis, adn there's no reason to call him clueless. I bet there are a lot of things SSJ knows that you don't, a lot of things you know that I don't, and every other possible combination: SSJ is a very solid poster and I don't think making fun of him is appropriate for such a trifling lack of knowledge. Please.


 yea.. plus im taking the business course in my community college... I just started less the 6 days ago so of course im not up to the section on stocks. We have only discussed globle market so far and that stuff. 



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FishyJoe on 27 June 2007
Lingyis said:
Bodhesatva said:
 

Your math is absolutely correct, and SSJ should read it (SSJ, this is how market capitalization and overall worth are calculated). But come on, not everyone knows this stuff Lingyis, adn there's no reason to call him clueless. I bet there are a lot of things SSJ knows that you don't, a lot of things you know that I don't, and every other possible combination: SSJ is a very solid poster and I don't think making fun of him is appropriate for such a trifling lack of knowledge. Please.


you're right, i was kind of harsh. i kind of regretted my wording after posting it. i apologize to ssj12.


When someone makes ridiculous claims without any knowledge or facts to support what they are talking about, perfectly reasonable to call them clueless. 



Bodhesatva on 27 June 2007
Roondar said:
Bodhesatva said:
ssj12 said:
Lingyis said:
ssj12 said:
The general fact that they passed Sony makes no sense. Sony makes way more products that Nintendo doesnt. Sony makes computers, TVs, CD Players, Movies, owns a music company, makes car audio, stereos, game consoles, and handhelds. Nintendo made board games (do they still do this?) then moved to consoles and handhelds. Nintendo's stock is nothing more then inflated stock that will crash down like the Chinese stock market eventually.

a) nobody is saying "general" fact. it's just one measure--but an important one.

b) you're looking at revenue. if revenue is all that matters, GM or Ford would be worth a lot more.

c) inflated stock price: that's your opinion. i've thought for years Google and Apple stock are way overvalued, and nothing has stopped them yet. and now they're both worth about 3 times as much as Sony. not saying Nintendo can keep growing forever, just saying that your guess, my guess, and everybody's guess "average out" to the current stock price, and nobody knows what the future hold.

 

the market cap is a non-intuitive measure. i remember many years ago when Microsoft first passed big blue, aka IBM in stock market capitalization, many people had similar discussions. they say, "it makes no sense", "Microsoft stock will fall", "IBM still have way bigger revenue, way more employees, they just need to turn it around". guess what, it stayed that way. and even today, IBM has double Microsoft's revenue and 4 times as many employees. Microsoft simple is more PROFITABLE. today, Google has a bigger market cap, i.e. "more valuable" than IBM--does that make any sense? hey, that's what market cap is. sometimes it's non-sensible, but to some, it's more than sensible, otherwise they wouldn't be valuing the company at that price. that's how equities work.

sony will probably do okay. the flat panel business is going through a boom right now, and apparently people are still slow to react. as long as the PS3 business starts recovering, they'll do more than okay. of course, bad things can still happen, like the chinese marginalizing the flat panel market. but sony appears to be selling on the back of quality once again, and that's something the chinese can't assault anytime soon. sony seems like it's starting to get back on its feet, but that's just my opinion.


since you brought up microsoft. Im still honestly shocked their corporation hasnt fallen in on itself. Especially since they were so nice to copy OSX completely with Vista. I would have figured investors would have taken notice on some illegal activities there.


Microsoft is head and shoulders above Sony AND Nintendo. While you can argue that Sony has more revenue, Nintendo has more profits, Sony may be undervalued, Nintendo overvalued.. yadda, yadda. Microsoft beats both Sony and Nintendo in almost every concievable category: Market Cap, Profits, Revenue, and way, way more Financial Reserves.

I think one could reasonably argue that Sony is still a bigger and more important than Nintendo is, on the whole. But there is no question that Microsoft is bigger than both of them. Even with possible qualms about Vista, that's not changing.


Ermm, Microsoft is indeed beating Sony in many categories. But revenue is definitely not one of them ;)

(MS revenue: $44.3 billion (2006), Sony revenue: $63.98 billion (2006))

Anyway, if you are to look at just the gameside of things, I'm pretty sure the current ranking (overall, not just next-gen) at this time would be:

1) Nintendo, 2) Sony, 3) Microsoft

With Microsoft currently closing in on Sony and Nintendo overshadowing zee entire world in a shroud of curiously Mario-shaped darkneszzz! (Assuming you don't root for the big N that is)


 I just looked that up, I was wrong. Thanks! 



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allstarr35 on 27 June 2007
omgwtfbbq said:
Gballzack said:
leo-j said:
Silver_Z said:
With such news.... it will only increase more sales of the Wii. Regardless whether it is as good as it claims. I for 1 will choose to buy the Wii if I see such news when considering a new console. I have already gotten my Wii few mths back, and I can only say... it is not as good as it seems. Mabbe I have a higher expectation of it, thus the disappointment.

The problem is that the media is EXTREEMLY negative when it comes to sony's gaming division I mean they try everything to make them look EXTREEMLY bad. They dont do shit to nintendo becuz they didnt win the last TWO console wars, and they dont say anythin about the 360 either actually they side with it dunno why. I think the wii sales will slowly decline the reason for this is becuz not every body wants a wii as much as a ps3 or 360, kids are most people buying it, it will decline when all of those kids have there wii's I thnk in abou 2 months.


My fanboy senses are tingling!!!

your fanboy senses are slow. you should get them checked... 

 


 

 

There should be no question who works harder between Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. It's definitely Nintendo, for the simple fact that it's a purely game company taking on huge media companies like Sony and Microsoft. Sony makes everything that is digital, while Microsoft is where every big business is. Of course they have to make money on every console because if they don't they are done.  To put it simply Nintendo is like Bob Sanders of the Colts he, like Nintendo is a little guy making the big dudes pay and of course Sony and Microsoft are running backs. And we all know what happens to running backs when they meet Bob Sanders aka Nintendo....

 

They get Jacked up 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=339177164920208949&q=Bob+Sanders&total=237&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4 




vizunary on 27 June 2007
FishyJoe said:
Sigh, it's not even worth explaining business to fanboys. It's like wasted breath.

Some nerve calling me a fanboy, you and GBallZack are the personifications of Wiiboys. So how about I explain what I said in the first place:

1st, if you meaning gaming division, then say so.

2nd, stock value isn't company worth, ALL assets must be accounted for, the entire corporation, if liquidated, which is WORTH<-- you picked this word, are you still telling me that Nintendo Corp. is WORTH more than Sony Corp.? I still have yet to see company assets anywhere here. This is the closest I came-

for Nintendo, from Hoovers.com a D&B company<--- that would be Dun & Bradstreet for all you financial wizards.

Key Numbers

Key financials for Nintendo Co., Ltd. (Pink Sheets: NTDOY)


Transfer your account from another broker to Scottrade & get up to $100 back! Apply now!
Company TypePublic (Pink Sheets: NTDOY; Exchange: Tokyo)
Fiscal Year-EndMarch
2006 Sales (mil.)$4,327.1
1-Year Sales Growth(9.6%)
2006 Net Income (mil.)$836.6
1-Year Net Income Growth2.9%
Get more Key Numbers
for Sony, same source

Key Numbers

Key financials for Sony Corporation (NYSE: SNE [ADR])


Transfer your account from another broker to Scottrade & get up to $100 back! Apply now!
Company TypePublic (NYSE: SNE [ADR]; Exchange: Tokyo)
Fiscal Year-EndMarch
2006 Sales (mil.)$63,541.2
1-Year Sales Growth(4.6%)
2006 Net Income (mil.)$1,050.7
1-Year Net Income Growth(31.0%)
2006 Employees158,500
1-Year Employee Growth4.7%
Get more Key Numbers
So, are we comparing total sales? maybe net income? no and no... well let's look somewhere else- Forbes - Global top 2000 list.
RankCompanyCountryIndustrySales ($bil)Profits ($bil)Assets ($bil)Market Vaue ($bil)

695

NintendoJapan Technology Hardware & Equip 4.33 0.84 9.79 34.00
 
164 SonyJapan Technology Hardware & Equip 63.62 1.05 88.75 52.14
Nintendo (other-otc: NTDOY - news - people ) shares rose as high as 46,350 yen ($374.50) Monday morning in Osaka, giving the Kyoto-based company a market cap of 6.56 trillion yen ($52.9 billion) compared to 6.49 trillion ($52.3 billion) for Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ). It fell back below Sony in the early afternoon as investors took profits, dropping 50 yen (40 cents), or 0.11%, to 45,400 yen ($366). Sony was trading at 6,470 yen ($52), down 80 yen (65 cents), or 1.22%. - Forbes.com
Overall, I was mainly saying that the title of the thread is misleading, and as far as total company value, Nintendo isn't even in th same game, sorry, but 4.3 billion in sales compared to 63.5 billion(USD) isn't much of a comparison. I think overall we're talking about different things...... what an utter waste of time this has been 


vizunary on 27 June 2007
Bodhesatva said:

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6193002.html

http://www.themoneytimes.com/articles/20070625/nintendo_surpasses_rival_sony_in_market_value-id-105311.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/BUSINESS/06/24/nintendo.sony.reut/index.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article2710684.ece

Relevant text: Nintendo shares rose as high as 46,350 yen (£187.65), a record, boosting its market value to 6.57 trillion yen and narrowly surpassing Sony's market capitalisation for a time, before settling lower. The achievement is extraordinary because, where Nintendo is a pure gaming company, Sony is a multinational entertainment and consumer electronics conglomerate whose interests run from movie studios to mobile phones.

It really isn't a matter of wanting, frankly. 

Even when Sony was dominating the market, their games division was making less money than Nintendo was, because Nintendo continued to dominate the hand held market and because Sony took such drastic price cuts and lost so much money on the console itself. So if Nintendo was already making more money when Sony was dominant and they were marginalized, imagine the disparity when that situation is reversed.

Just remember that this has little to do with the actual gaming experience of the consumers. Just because Nintendo makes more money does NOT mean that Sony cannot get great games and, for that matter, doesn't preclude them from winning the generation; again, just look at last generation. All this means is that Nintendo makes more money.


I never said that Sony's -->gaming<--- division ever made more money than Nintendo, or even Sony Corp. and it's subsidiaries as whole do(even though yes they do) I simply said once, twice, eighteen times before. I have yet to see anyone show that the NET worth of Nintendo to be greater than Sony, which is what the thread title leads one to believe....... I've really gotta stop posting on this thread, later.



Entroper on 27 June 2007
vizunary said:

Some nerve calling me a fanboy, you and GBallZack are the personifications of Wiiboys. So how about I explain what I said in the first place:


RankCompanyCountryIndustrySales ($bil)Profits ($bil)Assets ($bil)Market Vaue ($bil)

695

NintendoJapan Technology Hardware & Equip 4.33 0.84 9.79 34.00
164 SonyJapan Technology Hardware & Equip 63.62 1.05 88.75 52.14
Nintendo (other-otc: NTDOY - news - people ) shares rose as high as 46,350 yen ($374.50) Monday morning in Osaka, giving the Kyoto-based company a market cap of 6.56 trillion yen ($52.9 billion) compared to 6.49 trillion ($52.3 billion) for Sony (nyse: SNE - news - people ). It fell back below Sony in the early afternoon as investors took profits, dropping 50 yen (40 cents), or 0.11%, to 45,400 yen ($366). Sony was trading at 6,470 yen ($52), down 80 yen (65 cents), or 1.22%. - Forbes.com
 
Overall, I was mainly saying that the title of the thread is misleading, and as far as total company value, Nintendo isn't even in th same game, sorry, but 4.3 billion in sales compared to 63.5 billion(USD) isn't much of a comparison. I think overall we're talking about different things...... what an utter waste of time this has been

We know that Sony has vastly more assets, and more sales, but what a company is worth is measured by market capitalization, and how well a company is doing is measured by its return on invested capital.  The point is actually illustrated very clearly by the chart you posted above.  Sony has $89 billion in assets and made $1.05 billion in profits.  Nintendo has $10 billion in assets and made $0.84 billion in profits.  Which company is getting a better return on its investments?

For everyone else, see how I just did that without calling vizunary a fanboy? 



http://entroper.no-ip.org

Lingyis on 27 June 2007
vizunary said:
 

I never said that Sony's -->gaming<--- division ever made more money than Nintendo, or even Sony Corp. and it's subsidiaries as whole do(even though yes they do) I simply said once, twice, eighteen times before. I have yet to see anyone show that the NET worth of Nintendo to be greater than Sony, which is what the thread title leads one to believe....... I've really gotta stop posting on this thread, later.


the bottom line is--there are many measures of "worth" or "value" of a company.

the most commonly accepted one is Market Cap. total Revenue is also frequently used, since Market Cap fluctuates a lot on a company's present performance. Assets is another, but it gets increasing more difficult to compare companies across different industries suing that measure.

it does lead to somewhat strange results--like Google being a company 3 times the size of Sony in terms market cap. is Sony still a bigger company conceptually? i'll give you that. but Google can acquire Sony much easier than Sony to acquire Google, in terms of raising capital (ignoring details like premium, shareholder agreement, etc).  so... probably not that case in reality.

clearly, you know this--but you consciously decide to block it out. that kind of psychology is "fanboyism".

that a company with 4000 employees have a market cap comparable with a company with 150,000 employees is absolutely astounding. that's what we marvel at. it's human nature, to root for david against goliath.


 

 



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