johnlucas said:
RolStoppable said:
mrstickball said:
1) They aren't the only company based on simple economics. Microsoft and Sony are in the video game markets for reasons far bigger than just videogames, therefor just using "they are losing money" as an excuse is dumb.
2) For Sony, they've almost always made a profit until they decided to push more online functions and Blu-Ray technology. As I've said, and will say again, Sony is pushing a machine to push Blu-Ray, therefore the actual benefit of the PS3 to Sony (as a corporation) isn't entirely in gaming. Therefore, their true profits off of videogames isn't entirely disclosed in mere P&L statements for the PS3, nor console losses. So what if the PS3 looses $200? The PS2 lost $120 per system @ launch (give or take), and ended up making Sony billions of dollars.
3) For Microsoft, they are taking the route of pushing alot of DLC, addons, content upgrades, and such. Consoles aren't their bread and butter, which is why they lose so much. However, their bread and butter are from vista/office sales, and software. Secondarily, they make lots off of servers, to which MS is using their servers for XBL content. For all we know, profits for the H&E division are less because sales of MS Points and XBL Gold subscripts. aren't included.
4) Nintendo is the only game company because thats all they are. For them, if Nintendo ever lost money, they'd go bankrupt. Sony and MS have the advantage of being able to lose money, and being able to recoup it.
5) You can extrapolate "oh, if Sony/MS were just videogame companies, they'd be bankrupt" thats just faulty logic. Your assuming that if both companies just made videogame systems, they'd pursue the same stratagies, but they wouldn't. They wouldn't have the massive bits of cash to invest in things that Nintendo can't even invest in. Theres a reason the Wii uses rehashed GC technology - it's cheap. Theres a reason Nintendo can't invest in a fully functioning online network - it costs money Nintendo is unwilling to pony up for quickly, as its alot of money. This is a plus and minus.
6) For consumers though, the Sony/MS is better in the fact that we gain where they lose. We get systems that are far more powerful for the dollar than the Wii. Which might mean, or not mean anything to various gamers (to me it does though).
7) Ultimately, your trying to make a hypothetical point thats totally invalid. MS and Sony aren't video game companies. Thats why they sell systems, and what they do works for them. |
1) Yes, Sony and Microsoft are in the videogame business for more reasons than just making money from videogames, but they have to understand that the primarly selling point for a console are videogames. It doesn't look like that they will be making money from videogames this generation and they will probably also fail to make profits off of the other things they offer for their consoles (Bluray, DLC), because first and foremost you have to sell your machine as videogame system to reach massmarket penetration. 2) The PS2 made a cumulative profit of $2.3 billion for Sony's game division. The PS3 lost close to $2 billion in its first year and Sony projects another $500 million loss for this fiscal year. Everything the PS2 made in profits is already lost. The PS3 is a huge gamble, if Bluray doesn't become the successor of the DVD, Sony will not only have lost their reputation in the videogames business, they will also lose money on yet another failed new format they wanted to push in people's homes (Betamax, MiniDisc, UMD). 3) As of now, Microsoft's H&E division hasn't made a single cent of profit. In fact, they lost about $5.5 billion on the Xbox line. The Xbox exists to stop the Playstation line from becoming a convergence box for the living room which would cut into Microsoft's main business, Windows. 4) Nintendo has about $5-7 billion cash reserves, they could afford to make an Xbox like failure and would still be in the business. The Wii clearly shows that it isn't necessary to sell hardware at a loss in this business if you have a great product. Lossleading is a risky business, if you don't become dominant, you will lose billions (see Xbox, 360, PS3). Nintendo knows how to make money in this business, Sony and Microsoft obviously don't know. 5) Whether a company can or cannot afford to lose money isn't relevant. The strategies of Sony and Microsoft are stupid, they are betting the farm on their current consoles and therefore become desperate to have a huge hit. There's a reason why Nintendo invested in rehashed (but clearly improved) GC technology - graphics are perceived as good enough already by the majority of consumers. There's a reason why Nintendo didn't invest in an online network like Live - it simply can't be a profitable business (Microsoft is charging a fee and still losing money on it). 6) Stop believing that Microsoft and Sony are running their videogames divisions at a loss because they care for their customers. They are not charity companies. In fact they care far less about the videogame market as Nintendo. Nintendo has to care, because it's their only business. Microsoft and Sony give a rats ass. 7) If Sony won't be able to make money in this business anymore (which is likely seeing how the PS3 and PSP are doing) and doesn't see a possibility to make money in the future they will leave the market. If Sony leaves, Microsoft's primary reason to enter the market has gone. If the Xbox line hasn't become a profitable business (which was their secondary reason to enter the market) by then, Microsoft will leave to. Business is about money. |
More common sense from RolStoppable. Facts and simple logic win out everytime. John Lucas |
Unfortunately, facts and simple logic do not always win. This thread is based on opinion only, btw.
Anyway...
1. Both the 360 and PS3 have a lot to offer that the Wii does not. So far the game lineup looks far more promising on consoles other than the Wii, and the Wii has flawed controls for some games. I think the PS3 and/or the 360 can make money going forward.
2. That money is already lost, and if they are now about even then going forward they can get back to making profit. Sony has a lot of first party games to be released this year, so things should start to look better. As for the blu-ray side, it's a great decision for the format for Sony to use it for the PS3. 5 to 1 blu-ray hardware advantage over hd-dvd. 3 to 1 in favor of hd-dvd without the PS3 right now. The PS3 will also drop blu-ray prices faster and will close the price gap between the 2 formats (for players, blu-ray discs are on average cheaper now).
Yes, Sony supported the Betamax. They also supported CDs and DVDs. Their memory stick format has been rather successful as well considering it only works in Sony products. So yeah, the UMD hasn't been that great, but their memory stick which you can also play games from is actually rather great. But hey, just forget about that, CDs, and DVDs. Sony can't possible ever support a winning format, huh? In fact, with DVDs Sony compromised their own format (with Phillips) to help out with DVDs to avoid a war. Too bad Toshiba didn't return the favor this time, huh?
3. Can't argue here. Microsoft is pushing their downloadable content, charging for online features PC gamers have enjoyed for over a decade and then trying to move Live to the PC, and pushing their media center stuff. Well, if those things are all successful I guess it was worth it for them, huh?
4. Sony made money already. Just because they went even by paying for the intial cost of the PS3 doesn't mean they won't again make money.
5. Wow, their strategies are "stupid." There's a "fact" for you. The strategies Nintendo is using are not perfect. Graphics do matter to gamers and for that they will get either a 360 or PS3. As for the online element, I agree that charging is stupid but as an incentive to buy a game it's great. Blizzard, Valve, and just about every PC game company has included the features that Live has for over a decade. Nintendo is just behind. You can make all the excuses in the world, but they are behind. There are reasons they lost the 2 previous generations.
6. All 3 console companies want to make money. That is their first priority. I hope we can agree on that.
7. The PS3's best days are clearly ahead of it. Denouncing it before the best games arrive is kinda shortsighted. The PSP is doing great, and this should be its best year. If Sony left the videogame business Microsoft would throw a party and continue planning the next generation. Both companies have many reasons for being in the business.
