How different religions interact in that game - They experience conflict.

How religions make people feel in that game - All of them raise happiness.

I think you're looking at a basic tool they took in the game and assigning a mythical importance to it. The conflict would still be there without the religion. The game would be there, albiet with one less aspect to be controlled. If you took away the religion from civilization, it would be a worse game, but still a game with a story. Try taking away all religious implications from FFX. Still a game, but no story.

I suppose what I'm saying is you're appearing to be schizophrenic. We're seeing the same thing, you're just hearing a voice that is telling you it's important, and I just don't hear it quite yet. 

I never said it was important, I just said it delt with religion like no other game did. 

As always, I agree Shadow of the Colossus is a great deal closer than most games out there, but in terms of plot it's still very far away, in my opinion. I haven't played Ico, so I cannot comment.

In general, we both agree that these small handful of games are the best examples of games-as-art available on Playstation/Xbox/Gamecube, so let's just agree to small differences here.  

The biggest problem is that Okami did terribly, Ico did very poorly and Shadow of the Colosuss had mediocre sales. This, more than anything else, should show you that there is a problem in Playstation land -- the games you most identify as "art" are either bombing, or coming close to it.

I certainly wouldn't suggest that Wii Sports is art; I'd definitely say it's more adult than Gears of War, but still not art. My belief is, however, that these more casual games that appeal to adults are the bridge to get there. If Gears of War, God of War, et. al remain the most important games this generation, then adults will continue to simply stay away, and the few games that ARE best suited for adults -- such as Ico -- will continue to do terribly. 

We aren't going to jump straight from "Video games are an 18 year old male fantasy land" to "Video games are high art." The first thing we have to do is get adults playing in the first place, and Wii Sports is able to do that.

I think certain games have artistic elements. Also I think games are getting more artistic with time not the opposite. I mean early on games were very simple matters with no story even, I think more and more people will approach games with the objective of proving that they can be art and I totally think they can be.

Movies were pretty limited at first generally too, but as time goes by more people decide to experiment and push the artistic in a game. I think the closest to art that I have seen in a game is Ico. Sure most of the game is spent solving puzzles and surviving (like Zelda) but it is very artistic in that it delivers an emotional content in the slightest of gestures and actions and implications within the game. 

The way the girl character contrasts with everything else in the game. The way you are dropped into the story with very little context that makes the story so straightforward yet so instantly pulling you in and making you feel like this world is totally plausible which most games only manage to touch on rarely.  Even the way the enemies act and what they are is artistic. The way how throughout the game you really feel the relationship between teh girl and the horned boy as two characters that have just wound up together because of their respective circumstances that are largely explained as you go are all deeper elements than you will find in any game really.

Huh. So... you're just arguing maturity over the inclusion of a cultural difference and how it affects it?

That's.... weird. Makes for another gameplay variable I suppose, and accepts it's power but doesn't exactly take much of an intellectual approach to it. If game complexity = maturity, play Master of Orion 3 I guess.

More about brain age: 

Memory Tests were conducted on a wide range of people, from elementary school children to full grown adults. Data showed that people who did simple calculations and read aloud did two to three times better in tests of memory ability. Also, patients with cognitive impairment that performed simple calculations and read aloud two to five times a week were able to prevent the worsening of their condition and improve the conditioning of the prefontal cortices more than those who had not done such exercises.

Again, you can insist that it's not "art," but the essential component of art I'm most concerned with is intellect or emotional sophistication, and Brain Age is clearly and directly more intellectually provocative.

@ ckmlb
What you said is true, but for me games are just to fast-paced to be art. Art needs time to be appreciated, you normally can't find the time to enjoy the artistic elements in games because you are running around doing stuff.

The problem isn't so much that these games are considered immature or cater only to a certain bracket, but that the games themselves either make up the bulk of what's on the market, or that that is what people think gaming should be about. I do not play video games for every single game to look or feel the same.

The whole 'spitting on casuals' comes from fear. People think that this casual movement is going to kill games that they want. Foolish? Sure. What makes anyone think that all gaming companies are just going to drop what they've been doing and start making nothing but casual games? Do they think that casual gamers are as easy to appeal to as the core gamer? Not on your life. Sure, I'll agree, casual gamers do carry the market, there's just not enough truly hardcore players to sustain such a large market.

Companies aren't going to just start ignoring what they know will be guaranteed money. They know people are going to buy a few million Marios, Final Fantasies, Halos, Zeldas, Ratchets, GTAs, and the like. Especially to cater towards casual gamers that might be a lot harder to coax into buying things. Live with it, there are going to be more casual games out there. Oh noes. Maybe because even more games will be made than ever before? Perhaps because the gaming industry will also grow now that the market share is growing and embracing new people?

Relax and play whatever game you were going to play anyway. And then play the next seventy years of games made for you too. What's this argument about again?

 I really don't think you can gauge the 'adultness' or maturity of Wii Sports as it is for all people of all ages. There's no way of comparing that to Gears which is definitely not geared towards youngest audiences. 

The adults will no stay away because the generations of adults that approach games as merely games is withering away and the people who had games touch them in their life are becoming the new adults. 

Also I don't want video games to jump to high art I want some games that are art, other game I know will only have some art to them while others will just be games.

Also these Brain games and others that you say are the way to get 'adults' into games is a flawed outlook because they further the idea in adults that games only serve a purpose of entertainment and maybe a brain teaser at best. That's not the way to go.

The reason why those games bombed is the same reason why most artistic movies aren't the biggest hits. The vast majority of people (adults or otherwise) are only looking for entertainment and not art. It's the human state of affairs since time immemorial. Throughout history the people to appreciate art have always been the tiny minority and it will stay that way.

The reason these casual Wii gamese sell is their simplcity and commercial appeal not their artistic appeal. You are definitely a minority in the world if you see art in Brain Age. If you took the average person playing Brain Age they approach it as fun and stuff nothing more.

Also, aesthetics are a key to art. While Gears is certainly very shallow in its story and all that that encompasses (character, plot, themes) it is certainly aesthetically artistic and I don't mean that the graphics look great (which they do) I mean the detail and look and feel of the game. Hell even the color of the blood in Gearsm have you noticed that it looks more like black mud than blood most of the time? Why is that? That was a conscious artistic decision by the makers of the game. 

 That's why I look around in games a lot, especially games that look as good as Ico.