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Forums - Gaming - Kojima: "Next level of gaming" not yet possible

selnor said:
I read that and instantly thought of Fable 2. Every nit of foliage from flwer to massive tree grows as you play. Entire cities will be burnt down or completely thriving depending on your actions. Thought this wasnt possible?

 

Judging by how overhyped the first Fable was and how many promises it failed to deliver on, I'd wait before I insisted this was already in the game.

As for the article, it's par for the course, considering that Kojima is batshit crazy. I'm surprised he hasn't attended a press event wearing nothing but socks, a print of a Dali painting and a live rabbit tied to his body somewhere.

Really, the man is nuts.



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

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rocketpig said:
DTG said:
rocketpig said:
DTG said:
rocketpig said:
Meh, I have to call bullshit on that article. Kojima talking about plants and trees shows just how much he's missing the point of powerful interactive software. It's not about environments (though they can help), it's about immersion and innovative control systems. Those are what push this industry forward.

Which would explain why MGS4 is basically MGS1 with better graphics. They're both the same narrative-driven, linear experience once you boil them down to their core. Kojima has had plenty of opportunities to better exploit this medium yet he continues down the same path with every game.

 

So basically you're faulting MGS4 for being "narrative driven"? Isn't that to be expected given the legacy of MGS franchise as a whole? To some extent linearity and narrative go hand in hand and of course not every genre is meant to be a sandbox experience. If you're pointing out the fact that there's an obvious lack of gameplay to balance the second half then I understand though that is not what your post implied to me.

We're looking at three generations of hardware and Kojima only used that hardware to go further into excess with gross abuse of format size and processing power to fuel the same "cinematic experience" he created with MGS1. He didn't use any of that hardware for anything other than graphical processing power. Meanwhile, scads of other developers have used that new hardware to create completely different gaming experiences through the use of interactivity, controls, sound, etc. Now, here we have Kojima talking about how we're not "at the next level" in gaming yet when has hasn't even tried pushing the last two levels with any of his games.

In short, he should shut the hell up.

That's what I'm saying.

 

I don't really agree. It's true that Kojima is a monster when it comes to raping the horsepower of hardware but I think that is something to be expected given the nature of his cinematic games. That said, given the bounderies of the systems he has worked on he has innovated quite a lot. I won't even mention MGS1 because that game I think we can all agree was ground breaking.

MGS2 however innovated in that it provided the first truly "hollywood" console experience. Hollywood composer, Hollywood quality directing and graphical power. The A.I was also among the most intelligent on the market at the time. It was one of the first, if not the first console game to use motion capture (which is now standard today). Hiding guards in locks and FPS mode were both new additions to the stealth genre. The post modern pranks and crazy codec calls may not be innovative per se, but were new to this medium. The incredible attention to detail, from easter eggs to anamolies like shooting seagulls and having Rose bitch at you were also unseen in most games.

MGS3, sure, it wasn't much of a leap but neither was Mario Sunshine or Zelda TP or Halo 2.

As far as MGS4, product integration was done in an entertaining way for the first time and while not a gameplay aspect per se, it is still an important evolution in what will be an industry standard in a few years. The Octacamo was only possible on next gen consoles. The acting through facial expressions while still very limited is still a cornerstone for cinematic gaming today.  The very idea of "stealth on the battlefield" is paradoxal yet Kojima pulled it off providing a unique gameplay hybrid of FPS, action and stealth gameplay.

Just because there's no waggling involved doesn't mean there isn't innovation.

Everything you're listing are either small gameplay tweaks, graphical improvements, or irrelevant. Octocamo could have been done last generation and even the generation previous to that in all likelihood (Halo's invisibility, anyone?). Product placement is an idea, nothing more. It could have been done at any time (though Kojima did a brilliant job of it IMO). Directing and cinematic scores were available during the PSOne era. The AI has improved but Kojima's AI is lagging behind several other developers at this point. The AI in MGS4 was cork-on-the-fork stupid.

Really, the MGS series hasn't used any of the additional horsepower of consoles for anything other than visual and audial improvements. Most of the other bits added to the games were due to increased budgets, the popularity of the series, and Kojima's ideas, not because they were impossible to do in the fifth generation.

now i know you are just a hater and i doubt you even played MGS4 (on anything else except easy difficulties). Your opinions are so subjective and downright wrong that they are not even worth reading.

MGS4's AI is extremelly complex and unforgiving on hard mode. Their awareness is like nothing ever seen in the industry. They don't just shoot at you or stay behind cover or flanc you like in the rest of 99% of the games out there, games that are said to have good AI (lol). The characters in MGS4 are on a battlefield and they act as such. They fight you and most importantly they fight each other. You can actually create context on this battlefield by taking sides and basically shaping the AI to suit your needs, context that is carried throughout the entire level/game.

This is how deep the level of awareness of MGS4's AI goes. It works and it is revolutionary, simple as that.

 



"You have the right to the remains of a silent attorney"

Smash_Brother said:
selnor said:
I read that and instantly thought of Fable 2. Every nit of foliage from flwer to massive tree grows as you play. Entire cities will be burnt down or completely thriving depending on your actions. Thought this wasnt possible?

 

Judging by how overhyped the first Fable was and how many promises it failed to deliver on, I'd wait before I insisted this was already in the game.

As for the article, it's par for the course, considering that Kojima is batshit crazy. I'm surprised he hasn't attended a press event wearing nothing but socks, a print of a Dali painting and a live rabbit tied to his body somewhere.

Really, the man is nuts.

What I said was from a Playthrough from X360 uk mag. They confirmed those things last month, on top of that a full proper weather system which I posted about before.

 



selnor said:
Smash_Brother said:
selnor said:
I read that and instantly thought of Fable 2. Every nit of foliage from flwer to massive tree grows as you play. Entire cities will be burnt down or completely thriving depending on your actions. Thought this wasnt possible?

 

Judging by how overhyped the first Fable was and how many promises it failed to deliver on, I'd wait before I insisted this was already in the game.

As for the article, it's par for the course, considering that Kojima is batshit crazy. I'm surprised he hasn't attended a press event wearing nothing but socks, a print of a Dali painting and a live rabbit tied to his body somewhere.

Really, the man is nuts.

What I said was from a Playthrough from X360 uk mag. They confirmed those things last month, on top of that a full proper weather system which I posted about before.

 

 

Oh.

In that case, Kojima is even more crazy because he's dismissing features that are already possible as impossible.

Growing foliage is actually nothing more than an algorithm wrapped in a data table. It's the same as when Animal Crossing loads your town when you start the game and, based upon the amount of elapsed time, it grows weeds and makes changes accordingly. The same load is happening when you load the area the foliage is in.



"I mean, c'mon, Viva Pinata, a game with massive marketing, didn't sell worth a damn to the "sophisticated" 360 audience, despite near-universal praise--is that a sign that 360 owners are a bunch of casual ignoramuses that can't get their heads around a 'gardening' sim? Of course not. So let's please stop trying to micro-analyze one game out of hundreds and using it as the poster child for why good, non-1st party, games can't sell on Wii. (Everyone frequenting this site knows this is nonsense, and yet some of you just can't let it go because it's the only scab you have left to pick at after all your other "Wii will phail1!!1" straw men arguments have been put to the torch.)" - exindguy on Boom Blocks

el_rika said:

now i know you are just a hater and i doubt you even played MGS4 (on anything else except easy difficulties). Your opinions are so subjective and downright wrong that they are not even worth reading.

MGS4's AI is extremelly complex and unforgiving on hard mode. Their awareness is like nothing ever seen in the industry. They don't just shoot at you or stay behind cover or flanc you like in the rest of 99% of the games out there, games that are said to have good AI (lol). The characters in MGS4 are on a battlefield and they act as such. They fight you and most importantly they fight each other. You can actually create context on this battlefield by taking sides and basically shaping the AI to suit your needs, context that is carried throughout the entire level/game.

This is how deep the level of awareness of MGS4's AI goes. It works and it is revolutionary, simple as that.

 

LOL. You betcha.

I played the game on Solid Snake difficulty and rolled through the last half of the game. Even the bosses were ridiculously easy (especially Crying Wolf or whatever her name was).

When AI has you on the ground and then proceeds to run away, leaving you in a completely prone position, it is not smart. I could list bundles of games with AI far more intelligent than what was offered in MGS4. Even some of my friends (who are extremely casual gamers) were laughing their asses off at the retarded things the AI would do in-game.

Everyone I know who has played >20 shooters in their life and then MGS4 thinks the AI was cork-on-the-fork stupid.

 




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

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rocketpig said:
el_rika said:

now i know you are just a hater and i doubt you even played MGS4 (on anything else except easy difficulties). Your opinions are so subjective and downright wrong that they are not even worth reading.

MGS4's AI is extremelly complex and unforgiving on hard mode. Their awareness is like nothing ever seen in the industry. They don't just shoot at you or stay behind cover or flanc you like in the rest of 99% of the games out there, games that are said to have good AI (lol). The characters in MGS4 are on a battlefield and they act as such. They fight you and most importantly they fight each other. You can actually create context on this battlefield by taking sides and basically shaping the AI to suit your needs, context that is carried throughout the entire level/game.

This is how deep the level of awareness of MGS4's AI goes. It works and it is revolutionary, simple as that.

 

LOL. You betcha.

I played the game on Solid Snake difficulty and rolled through the last half of the game. Even the bosses were ridiculously easy (especially Crying Wolf or whatever her name was).

When AI has you on the ground and then proceeds to run away, leaving you in a completely prone position, it is not smart. I could list bundles of games with AI far more intelligent than what was offered in MGS4. Even some of my friends (who are extremely casual gamers) were laughing their asses off at the retarded things the AI would do in-game.

Everyone I know who has played >20 shooters in their life and then MGS4 thinks the AI was cork-on-the-fork stupid.

 

 

 Every person lives in denial more or less, but you my friend, take the cake easily.



"You have the right to the remains of a silent attorney"

Funny, I give examples of stupid AI in the game (I could keep going if you like), and you just say I'm in denial.

Maybe the enemy AI flanked you, it never did me. Then again, I never stayed still long enough for them to get a bead on me; there was no reason. Taking out up to 5-6 guys at a time wasn't a big problem. On the other hand, you could still cap a soldier and watch his friend stare at his body for a good 3-4 seconds while you reloaded and took aim at that poor bastard's head from a distance. Or, if spotted, you could simply run back a few yards and take cover, waiting for the AI to blindly chase you into a fire trap. Yeah, that's brilliant stuff right there. Stuff that I've seen in shooters for years. Hell, I never even saw the enemy factor in numerical advantage/disadvantage like they do in Halo 3. They'll just keep coming, dumb as stumps, ready to eat more of my nearly endless supply of ammunition rounds thanks to the game-breaking Drebin Points system. Need more ammo? No problem, you only have 250k credits... and it only takes ~1500 credits to resupply every gun you own.

When I play a game on level 3 out of 4 difficulty level, I expect some sort of challenge... MGS4 didn't provide that, at least not in the second half of the game when I was basically John Rambo walking through enemies like they were cardboard cutouts.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

He's right, this console gen is a joke. I haven't experienced any real new ideas or interactivity or FUN outside of Nintendo. The graphics race must END before progress can be made.

I don't see the big deal about MGS4's AI -- MGS2 for its time was sooooo impressive. MGS4 was just an extention of the old ones -- same shit really.



el_rika said:
rocketpig said:
el_rika said:

now i know you are just a hater and i doubt you even played MGS4 (on anything else except easy difficulties). Your opinions are so subjective and downright wrong that they are not even worth reading.

MGS4's AI is extremelly complex and unforgiving on hard mode. Their awareness is like nothing ever seen in the industry. They don't just shoot at you or stay behind cover or flanc you like in the rest of 99% of the games out there, games that are said to have good AI (lol). The characters in MGS4 are on a battlefield and they act as such. They fight you and most importantly they fight each other. You can actually create context on this battlefield by taking sides and basically shaping the AI to suit your needs, context that is carried throughout the entire level/game.

This is how deep the level of awareness of MGS4's AI goes. It works and it is revolutionary, simple as that.

 

LOL. You betcha.

I played the game on Solid Snake difficulty and rolled through the last half of the game. Even the bosses were ridiculously easy (especially Crying Wolf or whatever her name was).

When AI has you on the ground and then proceeds to run away, leaving you in a completely prone position, it is not smart. I could list bundles of games with AI far more intelligent than what was offered in MGS4. Even some of my friends (who are extremely casual gamers) were laughing their asses off at the retarded things the AI would do in-game.

Everyone I know who has played >20 shooters in their life and then MGS4 thinks the AI was cork-on-the-fork stupid.

 

 

 Every person lives in denial more or less, but you my friend, take the cake easily.

Pot meet kettle, its pitch black innit?

 



lol, yeah the AI in mgs4 was anything but revolutionary. I could shoot somebody with a tranquilizer dart, they'd act surprised, then stand there for a second before passing out, then his buddy acts confused, looks around then acts like nothing happened. Same stupid enemies that have been in every MGS game.

Kojima is extremely full of himself. He hasn't done anything useful for gaming since the original metal gear on MSX, and yet people including himself hail him as a gaming god. Making games into Cinema? That got big with FF7, not MGS. FF7 made FMV cut scenes for "cinematic effect" huge, Kojima just built on it. There have been an abundance of story heavy games, the xenogears and saga series has plenty of 40 minute scenes of just talking. He just got halfway decent voice actors.

Games like Half life, Fall out, and now Mass effect, and COD4 they are games that did or are doing important things as far as making a cinematic experience. Half life made you part of the cinema, unlike games that relied on taking control out of your hands in order to show you a scene, you lived the scene. It never took control away from you right down to the ending. COD4 built on that to create an incredibly cinematic tense thrill ride of a game where you lived the entire movie. Fall Out and Mass effect gave you a tremendous amount of control over your character, not just stats but personality and how he would interact with the world and how the world would respond. Fall out created a world where you could be a rude jerk off with a heart of gold, or a porn star drug addict hated by all. You can choose what you will say to people, and how your character is perceived and reacted to by others in the game. Interactive cinema. truly important and revolutionary (or evolutionary for the modern games) works that have greatly influenced and propelled the medium.

What did Kojima do? He said "memes" in a videogame and millions swooned. Which by the way, Richard Dawkins who the word "meme" originates with, I'm pretty sure is a more important influential thinker of the past half century. Kojima doesn't even come up with his own philosophy or ideas, he just rips it off of actual thinkers and then presents it extremely poorly in a videogame he wishes was a movie.



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