Let's try to avoid the shouting match over games that haven't even been released yet, shall we?

That was a pretty interesting read. There's just one gaping fallacy in the article that hurts the overall point. Here's the key sentences:

"This is great for the business, but the flipside is the impact this has on third party development, evidenced by the torrent of low-cost, quick-turnaround, me-too brain and pet games flooding store shelves. Like it or not, this is a sign of a maturing market where every taste, however offensive it may be to a core gamer, is catered to. It's no different from the trashy airport novel, or the straight-to-DVD movie. One thing's for certain, the special club is over.

Once accepted as a fact of life, these products are easily ignored should you so wish. The concern is whether profits from them are then invested into churning out more of the same, or channelled into the development of big-budget, long-lead blockbusters. On that score, I don't see any immediate cause for panic. Ubisoft is a major purveyor of what a cynic might term 'shovelware' on Nintendo platforms; but it is equally investing massively in major productions like Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, Far Cry 2 and the newly announced I Am Alive. It has simply evolved to meet the needs of a broader market. "

The author makes the same simple assessment of value that every other gaming journalist/website tends to do: sprawling, complex games like Assassin's Creed are inherently good. Brain Training-type games are inherently bad (note that these were referred to as "trashy airport novels"). And most people visiting this website - and this article - would probably agree with that value judgment. But most people who are not core/hardcore gamers almost certainly would not. A game like Brain Training emphasizes different values, not weaker ones. And the same Petz game that is widely mocked here might be exactly the product that a young girl enjoys most. Why is it so wrong to make games that serve these markets?

Until the specialist gaming media and gamers in general can accept that expanded audience games are not inherently inferior to the traditional fare, we're never going to make any progress.

Considering how ill-received Killzone was, the assumption must be that few who think KZ2 will be the best FPS of its time have actually played the very mediocre original (for those who did and thought it met the Halo-killer hype, you are not in the majority), or largely based their initial anticipation on the then mind-blowing target render video from 2005 (which turned out to be pretty close to the actual game engine visuals, only slightly less impressive three years later).

While the early gaming press impressions seem to be generally positive, I can't have a valid opinion of the game until I've at least played a demo, which should apply to anyone who isn't just spouting negative opinions based upon nothing substantial.

Without any firsthand experience in seeing what KZ2 brings to the FPS genre, it's a premature assumption to state matter of fact that it's just another generic FPS, even though that may be closer to the truth when the game finally releases.

Conduit may be a trophy piece for Wii exclusive gamers, but beyond being able to use an IR camera as an aiming device, I've still yet to see anything beyond the impressive for the Wii, but not by any other standards, visuals.

But again, no demo, and still far from final release means no substantial opinions.

How well the game sells may well be the most important aspect of Conduit rather than raising the bar for Wii visuals.

Sullla said: Let's try to avoid the shouting match over games that haven't even been released yet, shall we? That was a pretty interesting read. There's just one gaping fallacy in the article that hurts the overall point. Here's the key sentences: "This is great for the business, but the flipside is the impact this has on third party development, evidenced by the torrent of low-cost, quick-turnaround, me-too brain and pet games flooding store shelves. Like it or not, this is a sign of a maturing market where every taste, however offensive it may be to a core gamer, is catered to. It's no different from the trashy airport novel, or the straight-to-DVD movie. One thing's for certain, the special club is over. Once accepted as a fact of life, these products are easily ignored should you so wish. The concern is whether profits from them are then invested into churning out more of the same, or channelled into the development of big-budget, long-lead blockbusters. On that score, I don't see any immediate cause for panic. Ubisoft is a major purveyor of what a cynic might term 'shovelware' on Nintendo platforms; but it is equally investing massively in major productions like Assassin's Creed, Prince of Persia, Far Cry 2 and the newly announced I Am Alive. It has simply evolved to meet the needs of a broader market. " The author makes the same simple assessment of value that every other gaming journalist/website tends to do: sprawling, complex games like Assassin's Creed are inherently good. Brain Training-type games are inherently bad (note that these were referred to as "trashy airport novels"). And most people visiting this website - and this article - would probably agree with that value judgment. But most people who are not core/hardcore gamers almost certainly would not. A game like Brain Training emphasizes different values, not weaker ones. And the same Petz game that is widely mocked here might be exactly the product that a young girl enjoys most. Why is it so wrong to make games that serve these markets? Until the specialist gaming media and gamers in general can accept that expanded audience games are not inherently inferior to the traditional fare, we're never going to make any progress.

It's not the Brain Training type games that are bad, but rather the massive waves of clones and knock-offs that are quite terrible.  Of course the same is true of every genre of games that suddenly becomes popular.

 

Kyros said: Nintendo, with DS and Wii, has done more than anyone else in recent years to shake the industry out of what it perceives as this torpor, and drag it kicking and screaming towards entertainment adulthood. The extreme reaction to this is, in these terms, pure teen angst. Or the angst that people who have played a couple of games in their live and are underwhelmed by Fishing and Game Party games won't get another game worth playing till 2010? I think the article is weird. There are of course people who really only care if Nintendo "succeeds". The real fanboys. They should be more than happy with Nintendo's direction because it provides amazing sales. But people who want to actually play the next Zelda or Mario and who do not like Rabbits have the right to be annoyed.

 

Well, frankly, comments like that come from the ones he's talking about. Teens don't know they're angsty, afterall. They just think they're people reacting to a normal situation. Failure to see the larger picture and/or understand it, is what casuses bad behavior. It's never been about sales. It's about expanding our industry and moving the industry forward, with games for everyone, core people included.

I think the article is dead on, and well written.

Honestly people who care about "moving the industry forward" have a problem. People should care about getting a game they like to play. And if forward means:

"Casual games with a 10seconds learning curve for 5min gaming sessions". Then I can understand why people who like a bit more complex "challenges" have a problem with that.

If this is the future gaming market Nintendo intends to conquer then I wish them luck and many success, but to look down on long-time Nintendo fans who do not like this new direction is a bit ridiculous.

shanbcn said: Leetgeek said: I think Nintendo has already lost many of it's core fans, myself included. Wii's problem is the same as Gamecube's and N64's problem which is lackluster third party support. They are heavily dependent on first party titles to satisfy core gamers. That's why when they are at E3 and no Zelda or Mario games are announced, Wii owners can tell that it's going to be a long road. Sure there will be a few gems here and there: Wii music, some no name FPS, but watch resentment grow as your PS360 owning bretheren get an onslaught of massive big budget, high definition, mature, gripping, games from every genre. Games come out every week on PS3 and 360 that would be killer apps on Wii. Let me make a prediction: The earliest you will see the next Zelda game for purchase at a store will be 2011-2012. Think that's crazy? It wouldn't even be the longest Zelda gap there have been longer ones in the past. I tell you this in all honesty as a Longtime Nintendo fan who's not really all that impressed with Wii sales because I was alive and gaming during the NES era, when Nintendo was ALL there was and consoles like the master system were NEVER mentioned in schoolyard conversations, and EVERYONE was a Nintendo fanboy. THAT was Nintendo domination. The Wii might be the best selling game console of all time but units moved have nothing to do with quality. McDonald's sells more burgers the most fancy restaurants but where do you want to eat?   "Games come out every week on PS3 and 360 that would be killer apps on Wii." 100% correct, i mean its amazing how Wii fanboys hype trash like Conduit.

 

 

I Just wanted to second that. I agree 100%. Nintendo's announced fall lineup is the equivalent of Sony only announcing Singstar and Buzz for the Holiday season.  A game like Fat Princess, Flower, or Rag Doll Kung Fu on psn would be their big game of the year.  How gamers don't see this is beyond me.

This E3 showed clear signs that Nintendo is both unable and unwilling to provide for/appeal to both casual and core gamers.  Based on their current success I would expect Nintendo to continue down this path, with less and less core games and an even greater focus on casual games. (although we'll still get a few bones a year if we're good, just not this year.)

 

 

They don't have to turn them into shit - just something else.

Zelda is my favorite series for a multitude of reasons, and I dislike the path they took with Phantom Hourglass. Yes, the game is still fun, but not near as enjoyable as previous Zeldas, due to a bunch reasons I won't get into right now.

Sure, it's more accessible to those outside of the core gaming realm, but do I care? My favorite series is turning into something else, and I don't like it. Even if I did like it for the most part, it still wouldn't be what I've grown to love over the years, and the absence of that would be very disappointing.

However, I think - rather, hope - that Phantom Hourglass was a special case for the DS, and that the next console Zelda will follow a path akin to Super Mario Galaxy (i.e. same great formula with a few cool twists).

"Our view of how we use E3 has changed. For a very long time, E3 was an event where - and certainly Nintendo included - catered specifically to the core gamer. Now we look at more...an opportunity for us to introduce new concepts and new types of play that we intend to bring to the broader audience, particularly because of the media that gathers at E3 now. "So while attending an E3 event like this, they might be given the impression that Nintendo is no longer focusing on the games that appeal to the core gamer, in fact we’re still working on many of those titles, but it’s just not the type of event where we’ll be showcasing that anymore."

That is what I got out of the article. So quit moaning and groaning bout Kid Icarus or Pikmin 3, they are coming, just not at E3.

Ian said: shanbcn said: Leetgeek said: I think Nintendo has already lost many of it's core fans, myself included. Wii's problem is the same as Gamecube's and N64's problem which is lackluster third party support. They are heavily dependent on first party titles to satisfy core gamers. That's why when they are at E3 and no Zelda or Mario games are announced, Wii owners can tell that it's going to be a long road. Sure there will be a few gems here and there: Wii music, some no name FPS, but watch resentment grow as your PS360 owning bretheren get an onslaught of massive big budget, high definition, mature, gripping, games from every genre. Games come out every week on PS3 and 360 that would be killer apps on Wii. Let me make a prediction: The earliest you will see the next Zelda game for purchase at a store will be 2011-2012. Think that's crazy? It wouldn't even be the longest Zelda gap there have been longer ones in the past. I tell you this in all honesty as a Longtime Nintendo fan who's not really all that impressed with Wii sales because I was alive and gaming during the NES era, when Nintendo was ALL there was and consoles like the master system were NEVER mentioned in schoolyard conversations, and EVERYONE was a Nintendo fanboy. THAT was Nintendo domination. The Wii might be the best selling game console of all time but units moved have nothing to do with quality. McDonald's sells more burgers the most fancy restaurants but where do you want to eat?   "Games come out every week on PS3 and 360 that would be killer apps on Wii." 100% correct, i mean its amazing how Wii fanboys hype trash like Conduit.     I Just wanted to second that. I agree 100%. Nintendo's announced fall lineup is the equivalent of Sony only announcing Singstar and Buzz for the Holiday season.  A game like Fat Princess, Flower, or Rag Doll Kung Fu on psn would be their big game of the year.  How gamers don't see this is beyond me. This E3 showed clear signs that Nintendo is both unable and unwilling to provide for/appeal to both casual and core gamers.  Based on their current success I would expect Nintendo to continue down this path, with less and less core games and an even greater focus on casual games. (although we'll still get a few bones a year if we're good, just not this year.)

I still find it amazing that people can convince themselves that Nintendo is abandoning the hardcore with a downpour of supposed 'casual' games when I can count those games on one finger. How many did they announce at the conference? One? So the fact that in the past few months Nintendo has released MP3, SMG, SSBB and MKWii with a 2D Wario Land game for a console coming in about 2 months and Fatal Frame IV in 2 weeks for Japan means that they are "both unable and unwilling to provide for/appeal to both casual and core games" because they had the audacity to announce a Wii Sports follow up at their conference with 1:1 controls people have been begging for? 

Really? Are you sure you don't want to try again?

I mean you could at least pass the hallucinogens around. Some of us might want to escape to Neva Neva Land once in awhle too.

 

Kyros said: It's about expanding our industry and moving the industry forward Honestly people who care about "moving the industry forward" have a problem. People should care about getting a game they like to play. And if forward means: "Casual games with a 10seconds learning curve for 5min gaming sessions". Then I can understand why people who like a bit more complex "challenges" have a problem with that. If this is the future gaming market Nintendo intends to conquer then I wish them luck and many success, but to look down on long-time Nintendo fans who do not like this new direction is a bit ridiculous.

This might be the other issue. I think there are TWO types of people that comment on things like this (and are on VG):

1/ Gamers

2/ People "in" the industry

Now a lot of "2" are also "1" (i.e. myself), but I definitely visit VG more for reasons of "2" than "1". If I wanted "1" - I would stick to Gametab/IGN (etc).

The reason I'm here at VG at all, is because I need to make business decisions about what games to write for what platforms - and so the current & future trends are all very important. And also because I consider knowing current sales as part of "following the news in the industry".

So you will get two quite diametrically opposing views. Nintendo might be great for the industry, but it might not be great for "individual" gaming (depending on what you like). Personally, I stick to the Wii for now because its more "social" - something everyone in my household can/does play.