Buying a memory card is just SLIGHTLY different from buying either a $99 or $180 HDD. Where is the logic in comparing the two?

I'm going with TKC's take on this issue as an owner who is not "delighted" at the prospect of being able to buy another HDD so I can install all my games.

I won't be upgrading drives. I may end up replacing my 360 with a smaller, cooler running, lower power using, more reliable model for well under what the current 360 Pro costs (thinking $199 or $150 when the prices bottom out near the end of the cycle), but it's not the same.

Until then, I'm "stuck" with the 20GB drive, which only means I won't be using as many HDD reliant functions as I would on the PS3.

And chalk me up as one of the original PS2 owners who never bought more than one memory card. I'm still not sure how I managed to pull that off over almost 8 years and 50+ games, but I did.

Just because you have it does not mean that an overwhelming majprity of Xbox owners have it too lol

Try Halo 3 maybe?

And i've noticed people saying how 360 fans are hypocrites for embracing installs.

I have one word for you. OPTIONAL.

I doubt a majority of 360 owners will even use this feature but it's there and it is nice to have. Most people will just carry on placing their discs into their 360 and not be so lazy because they can. I have a 120gb HDD already so im thrilled but i'm not going to install every game of mine on to the HDD, i don't see the point of doing it for games with short load times anyway.

If you can't see the difference between mandatory installs that still require disc drive access and optional installs that require no disc drive access besides the startup check you really need to get checked.

Actually if you look back at past topics on the installs, you'll notice the "mandatory" part of the PS3 installs was the main argument against them, with developer laziness probably being the second most popular argument.

Selective consumers will always want the most options for the least coinage. That will never change.

One of the main issues people have with mandatory installs is that they take an option away from the consumer and put it in the hands of the developer (not Sony).

So developers are given the option on a standard HDD equipped console to either make a mandatory install on their games, making their job easier to make game play optimal (or sometimes just make their jobs easier without any real benefit to the player), or make a optional install and hobble the performance of their game without an install, which is likely to result in more complaints (Mass Effect).

Without having any sort of numbers to prove anything, my guess would be the typical consumer doesn't bother to do a full install on PS3 games that have that option available, just as the typical consumer won't bother to do an install on any of their 360 games.

But the option is available.

@DirtyP2002
in DMC4 on the ps3 there we 2s load times at much... vs 10sec on the xbox

and install is a install, if still optional great, but the install on HDD not matter what time it is will reduce the load time in any console.

Yes, let's compare installs. And let's do it fairly this time, so please change the following:

Remove "Unknown Benefits of Installation" and add "Reduces load times on PS3 titles"*

Remove "No Benefit" and add "Reduced noise"**

Remove "No Benefit" and add "Reduced Wear & Tear on Blu-ray"***

*) Comparisoms between recent crossplatform games (DMC4, GTA-IV) always note that, after installation, the PS3 clearly loads faster or has less pop-in due to improved streaming. Besides, the whole point of the installs on the PS3 side is to improve data-transfer rates because Blu-ray x2 is slower than DVD x12.

**) Blu-ray drives do make noise (especially while seeking). Installing does lower that. I'll admit it makes much less noise than the Xbox drive though. But you can hear it and it does become less with installs ;)

***) This is just silly. Of course installing parts of the data on HDD reduces wear and tear on the Blu-Ray drive. Every MB not loaded of the Blu-ray drive does so.

Please note this doesn't change the fact that optional installs clearly beat mandatory ones. But that doesn't change that you've vastly overstated the Xbox 360 advantage in that table of yours.

*) Do we assume that the added benefit is from installation, or the PS3 itself?

**) Ok. Lets change it to "slightly reduced noise" vs. "no noise" on the X360 to make it fair.

***) I was actually comparing the hardware, and not just the DVD drive itself, since the whole system benefits due to the reduced heat signature. Nevertheless, I can change it to "very small improvement" on the PS3 side and to "major improvement" on the X360. Either way, fully loading the game has far better, further reaching benefits for the optional X360 installs vs. the mandatory PS3 installs that are there due to sloppy programming, or poor PS3 preformance (or both, even).

This thread is funny.

People are now indicating that the 360 is obnoxiously louder than a jet engine. They've also admitted that the 360 drive has a wear and tear problem with the drive spinning so much. And also, inadvertently made it known that the load times on 360 games is not exactly where they'd want them to be.

So for those who can't install, they have to deal with those problems? Seems like MS is fucking over a few million of it's customers.

@ MrStickball.

On you comparisons you are wholly and largely innacurate. Are you seriously telling me that the PS3 has "unknown" benefits of installation? PS3 installation doesn't improve load times? Then what was the point of the installation? The hell of it? You and I know that installations improve load times, as HDD reading is faster than BD reading. Which was reported as the reason for the installs in the first place. Don't play dumb, you're smart, you know what you're talking about. Also, Microsoft said during internal testing the times decreased 30 percent. Who knows how many games they tested, etc.? So I'd wait for more data than "internal testing" before I tout that. Don't play dumb, you're smart, you know what you're talking about.

What is "fastest installation on all games" vs. "Variable". The reason for the variable times on the PS3 for installation are because of the "variable" amounts. The smaller the install, the less time it takes, obviously. So I'm not sure how that is better for the 360 than the PS3.

Reduced noise is a weird thing. The 360 is as loud as a jet engine. The PS3 is much more quieter than the 360. So while the 360 does have "reduced noise" is it in fact still louder than the PS3? If it has reduced noise, and still manages to be louder than the PS3, then that's pretty bad. Reduced noise is subjective to whether you own both consoles or not, cause if it's still loud, but somewhat quieter, it's still loud. Now if they said "whisper quiet" or something like that, okay, but I'll take that with a grain of salt.

Reduced wear and tear would happen on both consoles. What would be the point of installing the game if it didn't read from the hard disk? That's the whole point of the game installs on PS3 is to read from the hard disk. How would the BD drive not spin as much if it's reading from the HDD.

Come on now stickball. This install on 360 is a good thing. But comparing it to the PS3 in any other vein beside being optional is foolish. The only reason the installs are not mandatory on the 360 is because the HDD isn't mandatory. What you fail to realize is that the same things that you listed for the PS3 apply to the 360, but you're trying to say that they don't. As if the install on the PS3s HDD is simply for the hell of it. Get over this notion that besides being optional, this is anything different than what happens on the PS3.

@DMeisterJ: As I recall it, people who criticized PS3's installations did so mostly because of their mandatory nature.

With 360's situation, you still can:

- pop-in a game and play without installing it.
- avoid installation if you don't have free space.

Those two things alone kill all the annoyance generated by mandatory installations. I know it's fun to try and prove other people are hypocrites, but I see no hypocrisy whatsoever.

This is a nice upgrade, and one that I'm likely to use occasionally.