Just because he doesn't use the word "art" doesn't mean that he doesn't mean something along those lines. I mean, hell, he used the words "adult, mature, and intellectual" to describe the series. What does that say, if not exactly that?

Or I could point out how, say, Spankey compares MGS4 to Seven Samurai, or how el_rika implied that anyone who doesn't think the series is art is an ignorant "casual gamer," whatever that means.

I think MGS4 (along with GTA) points to the future of video games. It is games evolved to the next level. And I think your thread is a troll one.

There's a huge difference between saying something is on the level of literature and saying something tackles similarly thought-provoking themes as some literature.

Spankey never says Metal Gear is as revolutionary as Seven Samurai. He says that Metal Gear isn't hurting its medium just like Seven Samurai didn't hurt its own medium. He never takes the step and says games are on the same level as movies.

ElRika just called you out for not actually reading the stuff you talked about. It was a personal attack not a defense of MGS as art. He/she says that you're not seeing the "substance" of MGS. That doesn't imply that he thinks MGS is art. It implies that he thinks there are deeper themes than the ones you pointed out in your post. He probably agrees with one of my posts where I list a number of the themes in the Metal Gear saga.

You're inability to recognize the major difference I've pointed out along with the fact that you couldn't see any of the obvious themes in Metal Gear makes me seriously question your ability and qualifications for even addressing this topic.

There is no one future for video games. I hope no gets offended by the comparison, but MGS4 is a lot like a horror flick. Sure some of its cliche, and sure some it seems overdone, but to fans it's pure gold. MGS has never been everyone's cup of tea and it never will be. Whether or not you like what it does isn't the point so much as it does what it does very well. As for making our hobby look bad... I point the finger squarely at DOA Volleyball. If that doesn't depress you, nothing will.

The question of depth or importance of the themes isn't what I was refering to, the integration of the themes with the storyline are ...

Most (good) story tellers tend to have there story investigate the themes in such a way that it is transparent to the reader/viewer/gamer; if a movie is exploring abortion (as an example) they tend to explore the life of a person who is considering an abortion rather than have a 20 Minute dialoge about the philosophical implications of an abortion.

I think Wild Wild West and Van Helsing are poor comparisons for the reason you mention how the MGS tries to insert relevant (Not necessarily deep) messages in it. That makes it different as brainless movies like the ones you mention never preach to you. (Nor should they.) Something like the League of Extraordinary Gentleman (the movie) seems closer to the mark as in it's just as campy and over the top but yet tries to maintain a serious tone about it despite being every bit as idiotic. It also seems to almost force meaning into every action and character and seems to foster some sort of poor attempt at being historically relevant.

Having the same brain dead glitzy presentation preaching to you and trying to convince you it's important is more painful for me then when it's just accepts it's role as mindless entertainment. Then to draw out to about 4 or 5 times the length of an average movie makes it even worse. =P

But I'm really just quibbling, I agree with you last paragraph. And to Fishie I'd say this kind of "damage" was probably already done with the previous Metal Gear games and ones similar to it, the latest version would just reinforce what was already established among the critical art circles.

 Nah, in the grand scheme of things in say half a century from now people will look at those games and see them for what they are, forgetable crap.

I think the ones remembered as pioneering will be games like ICO or Panzer Dragoon Zwei/Saga.

Remember, Citizen Kane nor Metropolis or M were big commercial succes stories and all three received most of their recognition many years after release.

@Happy

Your original post is a bit confusing. You say in your first paragraph that Kojima has attempted to add "deep content." But then you go on to suggest the game is not deep when you say:

"From what I have seen, the only people who really see Metal Gear as being particularly deep are people who tend to only see the surface messages in movies/books/videogames and miss the subtext of a story.

When someone who truly understands and enjoys deep subtext hears about how "Deep" Metal Gear Solid is, and then plays the game, they are bound to think that either games are the most shallow medium ever created (if this is the deepest game created) or that Metal Gear Fans ar morons."

But now I get what you're actually trying to say. You're not saying that there aren't deep themes. You're saying that those themes aren't integrated into the story well. Or in other words, the themes aren't "deeply" entrenched in the story. I somewhat agree with you. I look at MGS2 and I see that Raiden's whole adventure (i.e. the entire game) is an example of how context and culture is just as powerful as a shaping force on one's life as genes effect who you are, and I have a hard time completely agreeing with you.

Anyway the point of my posts are to point out that there are thought-provoking themes in the series. That doesn't make the series art, but practically no one has said MGS is on the level of literature or great movies. Garcian is on a witch hunt.

I think he's using the word deep incorrectly. Like I said, the MGS series may contain themes that attempt to be relevant to current issues, but they're so overly explained in such a dry matter of fact way they never feel deep to me. That's my take, HappySqurriel may have meant something else, I don't know.

@ HappySqurriel )

I feel insulted by your choice of words - is that what the (self-proclaimed) intellectual elite should be doing?