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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How bad is MGS4 for the image of our hobby?

Fishie on 27 June 2008
DTG said:
bardicverse said:
DTG - Just a thought on the end of "children's fantasy tale" setting. Videogames were never thought of as toys for children, not until much later on, when Disney entered the market with its software in the SNES/ Genesis days. The fantasy fiction setting is the proper name you are looking to refer to, and actually tends to draw in the older crowds, the ones who know lines from Lord of the Rings like they do their home address. Most of the younger kids like games intended for them, and when they want to show off how cool they are, will play FPS games that their parents' probably shouldn't let them play. That crosses the border of your argument, into the violent gaming. The only negative side in our industry, in the public's eyes, is the violence in gaming. You won't see protestes about Final Fantasy or Zelda the way you do about Manhunt and GTA. Gaming is not considered, nor was considered "kiddie", a term ironically coined by Sony to try to put down the Nintendo systems and games. However, it is considered immature and "teen-like" due to the violent content, something that Sony helped to stoke the coals on.

 

I'd argue that video games were since their conception considered nothing more than a toy. If you look back at any video game ad from the 80's and early 90's period they were all directed toward pre adolescents. Games such as MK recieved criticisms and ultimately a no blood SNES release for it's adult content of blood and gore. You're right it would be more accurate to phrase it as immature or teen like, but video games were never considered as an entertainment form for anyone but kids and teens and Nintendo in particular played into that image with their policies and childish advertisements.

Video games are just starting to grow out of that image, but even today you'd be hard pressed to find a college professor or a highly educated intellectual well versed in gaming or one that even considers video games as a medium of any artistic or thoughtful value.

Wrong again, you simply dont go back far enough.

Videogames started out as adult entertainment.

 



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jman8 on 27 June 2008
Garcian Smith said:
jman8 said:
How could MGS4 be bad for gaming? What game according to you wannabe videogame elitists is good for gaming? I pity the fool who apparently thinks 99.999999% of videogames don't have any merit. Why even play games?

 


Let me make it clear that I'm talking more about the fanbase that the MGS games inspire, rather than the games themselves. I actually enjoyed the first two MGS games on the same level that I enjoy, say, the Indiana Jones movies: as entertainment, rather than as art. What people shouldn't be doing is confusing the two, because that's what's hurting gaming as a medium.

Who exactly is trying to push the games as art agenda? Yeah, there's some, but not many. Kojima himself has said his games aren't art. The fanbase is big and loyal because the games are great games, with interesting stories and novel gameplay. You're clearly blind if you don't see that games like MGS are pushing the boundaries of what games can be. People in this thread and elsewhere who are dismissing MGS don't have the vision to see that. They would rather pigeonhole the medium and have all of us play only games like Mario Galaxy.

 



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

jman8 on 27 June 2008
Garcian Smith said:

 

DTG said:
No, Kojima's games are the saving grace of a hobby that has been consistently degraded as childish and senselessly violent.

Kojima's games actually deal with adult issues and the in game violence (which is only optional) is always done so with reason. Themes of identity, free will, manipulation, memes and many others paint a distinctively adult, mature and inellectual picture over an otherwise unsanitized industry ridden with senseless violence and childrens fantasy tale settings.

 

Um... no.

Maybe I played different Metal Gear Solid games than you, but all I took from them was a bunch of over-the-top in-jokes and fourth wall breaking. When I think of identity and free will, I think of Descartes - or, if you need a parallel in entertainment, Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert - and not a video game about a super-spy fighting bisexual vampires and other villains with ridiculous powers.

In reality, video games have yet to see the medium's "Citizen Kane," or, the game that makes people take games seriously as an artistic medium. Planescape: Torment came close, but was ignored by everybody but reviewers, and we've only had a few good attempts since.

If anything, Kojima's games - or, more precisely, his fans - only serve to further the stereotype of the uncultured gamer who thinks that, well, games about super-spies fighting ridiculous villains are on the level of great literature or film. If you want something along those lines, go play a Chris Avellone game and call me back in the morning.

 

Literally, no one here has equated MGS with great literature. You are the only who has brought up that comparison. Just about everyone else has said that MGS has tackled some serious themes that are often tackled in great pieces of art, but no one has made that next step and elevated games into the high air of literature. Maybe you're trying to say that games aren't even allowed to tackle similar themes as literature, in which case it is your narrow world view that is holding gaming back, not MGS or its fans.

Edit: Garcian, just look at  DTG's that you commented on. There's not one mention of Citizen Kane moments, nor comparisons between MGS and Descartes. All he says is that there are some mature themes. That's it. Far different from equating MGS and literature. Great job attacking a non-existent population.



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

Garcian Smith on 27 June 2008

@ TheBigFatJ: That's exactly what I'm talking about. As I said, I've enjoyed the MGS games that I've played (except MGS3, which I didn't like due to the lack of HUD radar and constant need to navigate menus, and not for anything related to the story or presentation.) But anyone who reads into them as anything more than a bunch of over-the-top silliness is fooling themselves and hurting the public image of gamers.

@ jman8: But a lot of gamers - a very large amount of them, in fact - state that the MGS games ARE art. Take DTG earlier in the thread, for example. In addition, where did you get the idea that I'm saying that games can't tackle themes that literature can? On the contrary; I'm saying that they can, but they won't until gamers can properly differentiate good art from mere fun/entertainment value.



"'Casual games' are something the 'Game Industry' invented to explain away the Wii success instead of actually listening or looking at what Nintendo did. There is no 'casual strategy' from Nintendo. 'Accessible strategy', yes, but ‘casual gamers’ is just the 'Game Industry''s polite way of saying what they feel: 'retarded gamers'."

 -Sean Malstrom

 

 

HappySqurriel on 27 June 2008

Honestly, the problem with Metal Gear is not the storyline or the game it is the moronic reaction and undeserved hype of Fanboys ... Metal Gear Solid's story is very similar in delivery to a movies like Wild Wild West or Van Helsing; poorly acted and directed over the top movies that are entertaining when you turn your brain off. It is (somewhat) better than these movies because there is an effort to add some deeper content into the story, but  these messages are poorly integrated into the story and end up seeming clumsy. From what I have seen, the only people who really see Metal Gear as being particularly deep are people who tend to only see the surface messages in movies/books/videogames and miss the subtext of a story.

When someone who truly understands and enjoys deep subtext hears about how "Deep" Metal Gear Solid is, and then plays the game, they are bound to think that either games are the most shallow medium ever created (if this is the deepest game created) or that Metal Gear Fans ar morons.



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whatever on 27 June 2008

The only thing I can infer from this thread is that Fishie is arrogant, annoying, and way too full of himself.

Fortunately, not many agree with you and I hope Kojima keeps on making games as great as MGS4.



jman8 on 27 June 2008
Garcian Smith said:

@ TheBigFatJ: That's exactly what I'm talking about. As I said, I've enjoyed the MGS games that I've played (except MGS3, which I didn't like due to the lack of HUD radar and constant need to navigate menus, and not for anything related to the story or presentation.) But anyone who reads into them as anything more than a bunch of over-the-top silliness is fooling themselves and hurting the public image of gamers.

@ jman8: But a lot of gamers - a very large amount of them, in fact - state that the MGS games ARE art. Take DTG earlier in the thread, for example. In addition, where did you get the idea that I'm saying that games can't tackle themes that literature can? On the contrary; I'm saying that they can, but they won't until gamers can properly differentiate good art from mere fun/entertainment value.

 

Seriously, look at DTG's post again. There is not one single mention of art. All he does is say that MGS tackles some mature and thought-provoking themes. He never ever equated MGS with literature. Pretty much no one has done that. You're not actually debating against a real opponent. It's all in your head.



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.

pinback4life on 27 June 2008

your such a hater



Be honest with nobody and lie to your self MGS4 best game EVER on ps3 :?!!!!!!!

Fishie on 27 June 2008
HappySqurriel said:

Honestly, the problem with Metal Gear is not the storyline or the game it is the moronic reaction and undeserved hype of Fanboys ... Metal Gear Solid's story is very similar in delivery to a movies like Wild Wild West or Van Helsing; poorly acted and directed over the top movies that are entertaining when you turn your brain off. It is (somewhat) better than these movies because there is an effort to add some deeper content into the story, but  these messages are poorly integrated into the story and end up seeming clumsy. From what I have seen, the only people who really see Metal Gear as being particularly deep are people who tend to only see the surface messages in movies/books/videogames and miss the subtext of a story.

When someone who truly understands and enjoys deep subtext hears about how "Deep" Metal Gear Solid is, and then plays the game, they are bound to think that either games are the most shallow medium ever created (if this is the deepest game created) or that Metal Gear Fans ar morons.

Or dare I say it(dare dare), BOTH.

 



jman8 on 27 June 2008
HappySqurriel said:

Honestly, the problem with Metal Gear is not the storyline or the game it is the moronic reaction and undeserved hype of Fanboys ... Metal Gear Solid's story is very similar in delivery to a movies like Wild Wild West or Van Helsing; poorly acted and directed over the top movies that are entertaining when you turn your brain off. It is (somewhat) better than these movies because there is an effort to add some deeper content into the story, but these messages are poorly integrated into the story and end up seeming clumsy. From what I have seen, the only people who really see Metal Gear as being particularly deep are people who tend to only see the surface messages in movies/books/videogames and miss the subtext of a story.

When someone who truly understands and enjoys deep subtext hears about how "Deep" Metal Gear Solid is, and then plays the game, they are bound to think that either games are the most shallow medium ever created (if this is the deepest game created) or that Metal Gear Fans ar morons.

 

How are themes of loyalty, genetic pre-disposition vs genetic pre-destination, and systems of societal control, the control of information, the military industrial complex and the war economy not deep, meaningful, and thought-provoking themes? Sure, they may not be presented in the most clear way, but they're definitely there. There's no denying that.



My Top 5:

Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Solid 3, Shenmue, Skies of Arcadia, Chrono Trigger

My 2 nex-gen systems: PS3 and Wii

Prediction Aug '08: We see the PSP2 released fall '09. Graphically, it's basically the same as the current system. UMD drive ditched and replaced by 4-8gb on board flash memory. Other upgrades: 2nd analog nub, touchscreen, blutooth, motion sensor. Design: Flip-style or slider. Size: Think Iphone. Cost: $199. Will be profitable on day 1.