Kyros said: whereas in MGS4 we have dozens of main characters each with their own backstory and sub plots and individual points of view Eh yes this is true, but I would argue that telling a story with dozens of main characters with their own subplots is the basic PROBLEM of MGS4. If the only possible way to tell the story of a game is to have 6 hours of dialogue perhaps the story should be pruned . And I like multiple parties, viewpoints and even subplots Lord of a Ring was a good example of the feeling of a whole breathing world you can create with a complex setting like that. That doesn't change the fact that an Action game with a third cutscenes has a problem as a game. And I don't want to discredit the production values of MGS4 it looks amazing, the technology looks cool (the walkers are great), the atmosphere is amazing etc. pp. But I think Japanese story telling has some problems. Look at Baldur's Gate2 or Planetscape Torment for a good story progression in an RPG without hours of cutscenes (Yes you talk a lot in these games but you have some control and its never longer than a couple of minutes)

I will agree that if such long cutsceanes and over the top convo's have to be done than its time to prune the story. I think it was a case of wanting to put everything in, regardless of if certain story elements could fit or were needed.

I will also agree that HL and System Shock etc are an example of using the strength of the medium. Even if the storys are not as good, the delivery of said story was much better paced and worked on the strength of the medium.

i can agree, MGS is meant more for a slow pace of play compared to gears where people would be ticked if there wasn't some type of meat to shred or be shredded by, its just the style of games and one company doesn't want to make slower paced games......what is wrong with that

Better than the no-entertainment that Gears of War brought to me, horrible game.

^see now that just sound like a pissy little kid response....

Japanese developers in general are more willing to make slower paced games than American developers

From another perspective all videogames (well, Wii waggling aside) could be argued as being 'passive'.  If I compare playing games on 360 and PS3 with saying playing a real game of tennis then even GoW is pretty passive by comparison.

My point is that whether its passive or not is in the eye of the beholder.  If you want story and to be engaged in a story then MGS4 does that and the custscenes are not passive you are involved.  Others will see this as passive and see actively playing the game as the only way to be engaged.

There is no right and wrong here just different approaches and different views of what the goals for the game and the experience you have playing it are.

Captain Obvious strikes again. ^_^

The question isn't "who is right or wrong" but rather is saying "Metal Gear Solid 4 is passive entertainment" a fair statement? With the understanding that "passive entertainment" is such where the player spends a lot of time simply watching the game rather than "actively" playing it and based on the large amount of cutscenes and the short periods of time in between some of them in MGS4, I'd say so.

Who could have predicted that Sony fans would be pissed at an attack on a PS3 exclusive and 360 fans would defend the guy responsible for a 360 exclusive.

This thread = predictable.

I do agree that this guy should just shut his trap and work on his game.

Cliffy = retard as always...

crazy cliffy.

CliffyB used to have this website that I went to all the time before he got bored w/ it, www.cat-scan.com ..... he would get people to SCAN their cats on a color scanner while the cat would be trying to get away or viscously maul the hand that held them down. He would even have a section of hate mail where he would argue w/ the animal rights people that flamed him ho ho ho