After getting on after our conversation(I honestly do not even notice the adds, msotly ninja stuff right now) I took a look at the ads and all of them are things on the service itself or a standalone product on the 360. Not one was a a product unrelated in any way to media available on the 360. They are just referring people to content available on the service. It could be compared to a billboard if all billboards were portals that took you took the content they were displaying for immediate purchase(ie. demos, movies, tv shows).

Of course all companies have the cost for infrastructure, I wasn't claiming they did not. Saying that they do not include service fees in their bottom line was pretty obvious and in fact quite unnecessary. My statement was in regards to how that affects the company when they do not have money coming in to pay for these things(just saying, "hey, they do not include it in their numbers" does not make it go away). MMO developers need it and they provide a lot of the same infrastructure as XBox Live and people do not have a problem with paying 3 times as much as Live and can only play one game, and they also have to buy the game. Perhaps some thoughts on this would be nice since you have glanced over it twice now.

And the comment about PS3 was to prove a point that RROD shit is over-exaggerated online(especially these forums) and easy to make bold claims about friends. I did not want the claim validated as it was obviously meant not to be. Maybe I did not come off quite as clearly as I wanted on that.  And exaggerated rrod claims IS in regards to this thread, maybe not the op, but the vast majority of responses.

There are a lot of issues with dedicated servers (and benefits, as well) but unfortunately it's become a point of no rational discussion since it became a selling point of some ps3 games.

My big prob with that though Jagged, in regards to MMO's that is, is that you pay 15$ a month for a company that's attempting to give you a world, and a world connected to dedicated servers at that... Not a cluster of "zones" connected peer to peer... People have been peer to peer gaming for ages, and not ever paying a dime.

And like you said, steam is just "starting to get some features that lives had since birth", well I have no idea what these features are because generally IMO steam is everything live wishes it could be and more, but if steam really is starting to get these features and it's still free o.O? Then what gives? What is Microsofts excuse for charging us? I believe it's a common consensus that they don't NEED to charge us, people just don't mind paying, which is what I have a problem with. Giving them your money doesn't make they're structure any better, it doesn't bring the content quicker, it doesn't do anything except expand MS's gaming division profits. That's my real gripe.

Sony's attempting something that works for them, and works for us. Home may seem like a really silly concept, and by all means it could be, but man if they can simulate a pseudo world experience of bringing people closer together, slap some ideally placed advertisements in it (in-game billboards, posters, the kind of stuff that might actually enrich the experience), and essentially get it to pay for itself, then I'm all for the effort :P

I guess I'm just at the point right now, where there's a few heavy hitters offering fantastic service, and live just seems to be in the middle and can't make up it's mind where it's going. PSN isn't nearly as good as XBL or Steam, but hell, they don't make you pay for it, and I personally find dedicated servers to be much better than peer to peer. You agree with bungies decision on going P2P over dedicated, but I think I'll take Insomniacs perks over Bungies :x 60 players peer to peer sounds like a gaming nightmare.

RRoD is not fixed, if i was to pay and then get RRoD i would want to throw myself out of a window for being so dense. As for 30 billion on world hunger, How is this money being spend? Could just as easily be a con with a company that spends the money on their own goods and.....Tax relief....blah blah blah. Business is to frakked up to really believe a word of it

Had one, died on me.

Once bitten twice shy......

I guess the 360's hardcore fan base are the only people that won't be deterred if RROD hits them.

I've never had RROD in the 1 year i've had a 360 and I know the chances of me getting it are not that large because it's an elite model but even if it does get RROD, i will be glad to get a replacement free because i just have too many games to give up on.

I have 16 Xbox 360 games and i've spent about £50 on the market place so i just need to have an Xbox.

I have little to add to that. Comparing XBL to WoW, AoC, or any other major MMORPG with a subscription service really doesn't even merit that much of a response.

Steam is the closest PC equivalent to the service, and as you pointed out; it's free in additon to being an excellent game portal/service. All revenues are generated by soft sales. Valve's business plan seems to be working phenomenally, so there really isn't any need to make excuses for MS.

Actually comparing Live to MMOs is quite valid. But I guess I have to list out the similarities. Live must maintain data such as profiles, achievements, voice messages, text messages, leaderboards, friends lists, flaggs determining what DLC you have previously downloaded. All this stuff costs the same no matter what the content is that you are serving. Data is data. MMOs have to pay for servers to host data and Live has the same thing in that regards. There are engineers and developers for both that are needed to improve the service through features or maintenance. The comparison is valid and if they can charge 3 times as much to host data, so be it.

You keep rehashing your same argument by stating the features of XBL which have more in common than not with services like PSN and Steam; both of which serve the same purpose only without the subscription fee. They too have "engineers and developers for both that are needed to improve the service through features or maintenance."

MMOs like WoW are based upon a business plan where the razor is all but given away, but the blades are what provide revenues for Blizzard. You're in the minority in perceiving that a paid XBL subscription is comparable with WoW or AoC. It would be a hard sell to anyone with a WoW account that XBL is a similar service at a third of the price.

The closest thing to an MMO online console service would be Home, which is currently still on record as being a free service, albeit subsidized by in-game adverts and in-game item sales. Technically, not even a game, but then neither is texting or voice messaging people on your friend list either.

XBL is a gaming portal with an online store. That's it. You love it; we get it.

Was going to buy a lads broke 360 from him for 55 pounds today. I phoned up Microsoft and asked would they fix it ( disc drive error) they said only the three red lights was covered with an extended warranty.
They said to fix it would cost 60 pounds. I aint payin 55 to my workmate and then 60 to get it fixed its an absolute joke, pathetic customer service. I was really looking forward to it too. Does anyone know any way round this? A few of the people I know said its a common problem. If not I need a way to make it rrod then they have to fix it.

I swear if Sony launch with a decent online service next gen then I will not go near anything that Microsoft have to offer. If a company cant repair what crap they created for their customers they dont deserve any. Sorry just really was looking forward to gears coop and NG2