Zero Punctuation is your measuring stick eh? Well would you agree with him that Nintendo has been using the same tired old franchises for decades and needs to come up with something new? Or that the Wii simply replaces constant button mashing with constant stick waggling?

Penny arcade is nice, but why is it you simply disregard the opinions of those in the thread who played and truly enjoyed the game? Do you assume we're all somehow paid off by Konami as you assume the review industry is? Or instead do you assume that we're all blind fanboys, and only zero, penny arcade, and anyone else who dislikes MGS4 are objective?

Actually yes, the way most third party developers utilize the wiimote is little more than button mashing and at this early stage in its utilization its not hard to criticize the Wiimotes functionality. Also, as much as I like Nintendo its franchises are pretty much the same thing over and over, good or not, it is getting repetative and I severely agree with him on the fact Nintendo needs to come up with something NEW and FAST!

I'm not so much disregarding opinions as I'm putting them in perspective. This close to launch its not uncommon to see people dazzled by the light, most games typically take six months before a consentual opinion of its quality is established.

I also didn't call anyone a "blind fanboy" and I don't know why you're trying to turn my opinions vs those who adore the game into an issue of black and white. I don't think its a bad game, just not as good as it could have been and certainly not as good a game as some would assert. I think MGS2 has shown us the clear divide in the industry between people who will be satisfied with just a fancy presentation and those who will actually measure a game based on its merits an achievements.

In the end, you offer no legitimate defense for the game yourself, only a very sensationalize criticism of my own opinion. Also, your assertion that there simply being any number of the people who actually love a game means there has to be something of merit to its quality speaks to nothing more than the unique phenomenon that MGS typically is in the industry; the stark split between those who will praise it as a phenomenon and those who will criticize it as a game. 

And while I wouldn't consider Zero or Penny-Arcade to be the end all, be all, they certainly are a unique litmus test for a game's value and the market as a whole.

Again, like DMeisterJ, all you can offer up is the sensationalizing of my opinions as something heinous rather than actually stepping up to defend the game itself or counter any of my points against the game. Certainly there is merit to your scruitiny of my basis and ability to make an objective assessment of the game, however since a game like MGS4 will sell primarily to only those who want to love it's not hard to imagine it won't intur many people willing to criticise it at it this point. Considering little more than 10% of the PS3 user base has actually purchased the game this case is made all the more convincing. Once the game gets better market penetration (if it ever does) you will most likely see a more sobering response from fans. Even then we can assume that potentially anyone not wowed by Kojima's presentation over gameplay philosophy as epitomized in the last majorly hyped MGS game, MGS2, would just avoid MGS4 altogether eliminating many others who would step up to call the game out on its flaws. And in the end when you're left with a game that sells primarily to a fanbase willing to love it no matter what it is, it's really no wonder there are so many singing the game's praises.

alright, I'll try not to sensationalize this too much and throw it out very simply.

My issue is not with your contribution to the thread and the discussion about MGS4, my issue is that you have nothing to contribute at all. Your posts are simply regurgitated opinions that you read somewhere and agree with. How you pick which opinions to agree with I'm unsure.

As for debating all your points, they have been brought up and debated before. You say the gameplay isn't great, but I've played the game and will tell you differently. You say that cutscenes are a sign of poor storytelling, and I tell you that I enjoy them still, and we could have the cutscene debate til the end of time and it will fix nothing. You say MGS4's story is poorly told, I say it's an enjoyable story if you aren't trying to turn it into a philisophical masterpiece, which it is not.

The problem is this debate is just fighting opinions with opinions. And the real problem is that in this debate, I'm the only one who actually played the game, so it's my opinions versus the opinions of some people you read about or some other such thing.

All I've done is stated my opinion, defended it and responded in due kind to attacks from individuals like yourself.

Dose my contribution bring anything of value to the thread? If your argument is everything I've said has already been adressed then you might as tell anyone with an opinion late to a thread to just be quite. Maybe a person wishes to share their thoughts or perspective on the situation. It's unrealistic to assume matters will be resolved with a general consensus between sides in such discussions so for you to assert my failure to produce such negates my presence here is somewhat faulty.

In the end, you don't disagree with my opinions so much as you just don't like them, much like DMeisterJ. I appreciate that, and respect your dislike of my opinion as being just insult to injury on a matter you view as already having been laid to rest, however forgive me if I don't concede an utter abandoment of my opinion to something so frivilous and vain.

I am going to defend both MGS and Kojima from naysayers even if it kills me. Kojima is a good storyteller even if he relies on cutscenes. There is no set way to tell a story yet people think that story must always be implemented in the gameplay. I am not saying I am against implementing the story in the gameplay. In fact, I though BioShock did a great job of telling it's story through this method. Video games have serious storytelling potential and MGS4 is using the potential to good effect. I know what some of you will be saying. What to watch a movie? Go watch a movie. What a good story? Read a book. Do movies and books have to be the only ones that can have an emotionally affecting story? No they don't. I watch movies and read books as well as play video games. Do all video games need a good story to be good? No they don't. I hope atleast one understanding person can understand what I am trying to say.

@Onimusha
I'd like to think I both disagree and dislike your opinions. I disagree with them at face value, and dislike them based on how you came upon them. My argument is not just that these points have been addressed, but that you have nothing to bring to the thread that has not been stated by someone else, because that is where you are getting your opinions from.

I will argue all day with someone who's played the game and didn't like it, and in the end I accept that neither of our opinions will change because no game is for everyone. Personally SSBB just didn't click for me, but I can still appreciate people that really loved it. What I can't forgive is someone attacking a game simply because of what they read about it.

Out of curiosity, what review score do you think the game deserves?

MGS4 would have been better off as a 4 part film brought out straight to DVD. Then all the fans could watch the story unfold(like they do in the game) and wouldnt have to play what is quite frankly okish gameplay sections. MGS4 would have been better as a film DVD release.

I've played MGS through MGS3, I've read enough opinions, reviews and insights on the game from both sides of the fence. It does not take a genius, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on with this game or figure out what the hell is going on. The very fact your only attack on my opinions is the blanket default I've not played it myself yet cannot defend the game itself on a single one of its own merits seriously begs the question of your opinions validity more than my own. Unless you're hoping I too would be blinded by the over all presentation of MGS4 and lose my nerve to call it anything but a pretty game, I don't see what your point is as everything I've sided with is more than reflective of the game's mediocre performance and Kojima's notorious history of MGS game making.

I guess only the people with the small fortune to afford a PS3 and this game can be allotted the right to make an educated deduction of the game's achievements and that in itself ensures a majority sum of individuals who are already fans of the series, want to love the game and are dedicated to the series. This is not a PS2 game, it's a PS3 game.

Interestingly enough, were you aware that most if not all publishers have legally binding contracts with Game Magazines and Game Sites that in order for that source to be able to release an early review of a game, it has to be within a specified range. Typically this range is 8-10 but can be as picky as 9-10. If a reviewer does not uphold this, they at the very least are shunned (denied future access to pre-launch games and information) and at the very most face legal action as is now the case with Atari and Alone in the Dark taking issue with several reviewers.

LAIR was a similar situation, however the convenient excuse, Sony's "Guide" for how to review the game (what range of scores they were allowed to give it) had not arrived yet, spared most from repremand.These contracts can vary from reviewer to reviewer and game to game depending on the size of the project and its priority in the Company. The Game Industry basically has the reviewing system at its mercy when it comes to its bigger games and publishers like EA, Microsoft and Sony have alot of muscle to flex.

Imagine if you will the head Editor leaning over your cubical and telling you, "Play just enough of MGS4 to have something to say about it, but the games score will be a 10." Major Game Magazines and Sites cannot afford not to play ball, how many hits do you think Game websites got and how many magazines do you think were sold just for people to see the earliest review of MGS4? This wasn't the game of the year, but the game of the last four years. This game was the major push for all the magazines and game sites it was already in their favor to make it look good or risk a loss of face to the consumer. To question this game would have been to question the industry and its standards.

Funny thing about Penny-Arcade, like their reviewes or not, they are an invaluable source for insider information on the goings on behind the scenes in the industry. They are the best source for the drama, the politics and the underhanded dealings of the gaming world. It's really a crime more people don't read their news posts, they'd learn so much of what really goes on behind the scenes of game reviews.

What score would I personally give the game? From everything I've heard and Seen, I'd think a 7 at its lowest and an 8 at its highest would be the most appropriate.

you guys are ignoring metal gear solid also includes metal gear online which is awfully addicting plus the main game.
as its now mgs4 combines a very fun game, with great story line, i never finish the first metal gear solid , but i could enjoy the cutscenes without a problem
abut also sneaking CQCing and shooting with the automode like there was no tomorrow ;)
and if it was a movie i would have been able to be so hooked to it.

So, does it get two thumbs up or not?