Wow, well said, Impulsivity.
shio said:
Deus Ex: it has better story, storytelling, writing, interactivity and it is indeed cinematic. Far superior to any MGS game. Oh and people don't want to experience movies, they want games.
|
Considering the massive success of the MGS franchise I think people wanty movies and games equally.
Also, Dues Ex is a bad example as it has nowhere near as much character development nor does it explain its world, technology, politics as in depth rendering it's universe incomplete and unbelievable and contains nowhere near the amount of philosophy as MGS games do. I'd rather take a game with 40 minutes of philosophical exposition to a game with 5 minutes of it told through a small paragraph.
| Impulsivity said: MGS4 is NOT Splinter Cell nor should it be; it has a denser story and a lot more cinematic devices that compliment involved stealth action which rewards patience and creativity over brute force. (particularly on the high difficulty levels where you can't mow down 50 soldiers with your gun) In short it has everything a great game of its type should have and more. |
Fiinishing a level/area/event should ALWAYS be rewarded with getting to play the following part. Anyone who think of cutscenes as a reward needs to get their head straight. Cutscenes should only be a force of continuity, something that keeps things going when it fits, and always secondary to interactivity.
Second, many times in MGS games it feels the gameplay is the one that complements the cutscenes... that is not a good thing. And patience? I bet most of the patience gamers bare in MGSs are in the cutscenes. Creativity? What do you mean with that...
| Impulsivity said:
If you prefer to keep your games and novels separate have at it, but don't act as though anyone who doesn't appreciate your taste in media or your preachy tone is somehow inferior to you and your "developed" tastes. I enjoyed Metal Gear Solid 4 far more then slogging through The Old Man and the Sea thank you very much and I in no way feel ashamed of that fact nor should I be made to. |
That doesn't make sense coming from you. Kojima is one of the biggest perpetrators at separating the gameplay and the story. That's why many people think Kojima is simply not good enough to make deep, complex videogame stories. He limits his works by NOT integrating the plot into the gameplay.
He should play Planescape: Torment, to give him an idea of how it's done.
DTG said:
Considering the massive success of the MGS franchise I think people wanty movies and games equally. Also, Dues Ex is a bad example as it has nowhere near as much character development nor does it explain its world, technology, politics as in depth rendering it's universe incomplete and unbelievable and contains nowhere near the amount of philosophy as MGS games do. I'd rather take a game with 40 minutes of philosophical exposition to a game with 5 minutes of it told through a small paragraph. |
Have we played the same game? Deus Ex has more character development, and beter yet, it leaves several parts of it into the players' own hands. It goes more into depth on politics, religion, freedom, etc... than the entire MGS series, not only through clear and natural dialogues but also by experiencing it.
I know you would prefer to watch a 40 minute, DTG. We all know you'd prefer that because it seems you are not capable of processing the thematics inside the gameplay.
shio, your opinion is no more valid than the rest of us.
The excuses being made for this game are quite embarassing. While most games are defended with point and counterpoint discussions of the game's qualities, the majority of defenses of MGS4 as a game seem to be challenges of the dissapointed party's individual's tastes and understanding of games or genres.
What I find most insulting is that the seeming universal response to the claims of "MGS4 not being everything it could be" with "that the game isn't Splinter Cell". This is asinine. In truth you're simply just trying to use the ambiguity of Metal Gear Solid Genre as a free ticket to say no matter what the game does, its brilliant and the way MGS should be and anyone who dissagrees simply doesn't understand.
On the matter of cutscenes, there is academically little things wrong with a cutscene heavy game, with exception of the fact that it shows a poor utilization of the given media as an art form and interactive experience... with exception of the fact that it shows they simply didn't have enough time or resources to actually make a playable sequences for those parts of the game they had no choice but to turn into cutscenes... with exception of the fact that Kojima's weaknesses as a story teller and game maker are only exaserbated by a game so heavily dependent on lengthy cut scenes.
People who want to love MGS4 will love it no matter what it does and will make any excuse for it after the fact to justify it's merit. That's not to say people aren't allowed to love this game for legitimate reasons, but the overwhelming number of "MGS is the perfect game no matter what you say because you just don't understand it," arguments here suggests a large number of individuals desperate to defend anything Kojima or anything MGS irregardless its true quality.
DTG said:
The fact is you yourself have inadvertently admitted that interactivity isn't the best method to Kojima's style as neither you nor anyone else has been capable of naming a single game that can present one hours worth of philosophical dialogue through subtle interactivity. Kojima is here to teach us and he can only do so through lectures like any teacher does. |
philosophical dialogue!!!! lectures like any teacher does!!!! sounds like boatloads of fun, I'm heading out to get my PS3 and metal gear solid now!!!!!!!!
I just don't understand how some people in this thread can't grasp the idea that some people like how MGS games are presented. You can't just leave it as a difference of opinion but instead try to convince fans of the series that the game isn't fun or isn't all it could be.
I like cut scenes, they're fun to watch, and can depict scenes that you couldn't possibly play through. I see no issue with the use of them, and if you don't like it then noone is forcing you to play the game, but I still enjoy them and you're just going to have to deal with that.
...
| Onimusha12 said: The excuses being made for this game are quite embarassing. While most games are defended with point and counterpoint discussions of the game's qualities, the majority of defenses of MGS4 as a game seem to be challenges of the dissapointed party's individual's tastes and understanding of games or genres. |
you haven't played the game.
| KylieDog said: I was greatly dissapointed with MGS4.
Playing all the games since even the very first Metal Gear, I think is safe to say I am a big fan of the series.
That said, after MGS3 I think the series has gone downhill.
For one thing the story starts making direct contradictions, MGS3 for example tells us clearly in black and white at the end that the Patriots are in fact the American part of the philosophers, but then PO (Portable Ops) and MGS4 contradict this and set the story up to be Ocelot and the rest. Apparently the entire Zero/big Boss feud took less than two years to happen since Zero did the cloning project only two years after the Patriots formed, and it took Big Boss 25 years or so to do something about it? Big Boss was also in a coma when he was cloned, why didn't Zero keep him that way then instead of when he did. Also, if Big Boss was cloned to keep that 'permant image' Zero wanted, why give the clones short life spans? Defeats the point... The timeline is flawed in terms of when Zero was meant to have passed control over to the AIs, making actions of previous games too late or too soon based on knowledge certain characters were meant to have had, and the story makes no sense in terms of alliances and end enemies, people working against eachother when they all wanted the same end result. Para-medic turning from a caring "don't hurt the poor little creatures" character into someone who tortures people in horrific experiments is also complete bullshit, same with Sigint working to stop two metal gears just to go and make one? Poor switches of character.
As to the gameplay, too much action, not enough stealth, I've not played through on 'The Boss' extreme yet but I have done on 'Big Boss', and the punishment for getting spotted is a joke, you can act like rambo most of the game and do fine, especially with the FPS-esque mode making headshots hilariously easy to perform in mass.
The first two acts are ok, presenting enough moments where you can challenge yourself to not get spotted (even if it doesn't matter if you are) but acts 3, 4 and 5 are terrible, act 3 especially. I get the fan service, it is nice Whatever happened to the codec system also, Rose has about 3 different things to say throughout the entire game, and otacon not much more, no one to chat and save with either, lots of hidden plot details and bits of comedy inserted itself into the series through codec, MGS4 lacks this. Sadly there aren't even other options to speak to, would it have hurt to chat to Campbell or Drebin, or even Sunny, or Mei Ling? The Drebin system ws terrible, may as well just turn infinite ammo/silencers on as something in the options menu. The lack of things like Boss survival modes was dissapointing also. The B&B unit was also shallow and faceless, no character to any of them or the unit as a whole, cannot even compare to Foxhound, Dead Cell or the Cobra Unit. The Nanomachines don't explain how Vamp can walk on water and as good as fly in MGS2 either. Not to mention how he survived a cross through his chest/heart (I forget which) for 3 days as a child, he didn't have machines in him then.
Overall I would say the worst MGS game, except for portable ops. Still an ok game, but not a AAA title. |
SPOILERS, btw... Ocelot was working for the Americans. They don't contradict. The end of MGS3 is Ocelot securing the first half of the legacy. PO is him securing the 2nd half. MGS2 tells you the Philosophers are dead. MGS3 tells you that The Boss is the last living descendant and that Volgin got the legacy. The Boss and The Sorrow are the parents of Ocelot. Ocelot is American. I don't know where the contradiction is. Clones aren't automatically given short life spans, it is an effect of cloning. I'm pretty sure EVA explains why Big Boss waited, but I'll have more to say on that when I replay it again. Care to give some specifics about what characters should have known or didn't know? It doesn't matter who is in control as long as it's the Patriots. Both Zero and the AI can be considered Patriot control. I disagree about Para-medic and Signit. They had their own motivations and development. I don't think it was meant as torture but rather experimentation, also. The fact that Frank sought revenge is part of his many flaws. Other than that...oh, the codecs were shorted due to complaints from fans. I could go either way. I believe there are hidden codec messages in the game, though...but other than that, I'm sorry you didn't like it. I thought it was a great way to tie everything up.
| Torillian said: I just don't understand how some people in this thread can't grasp the idea that some people like how MGS games are presented. You can't just leave it as a difference of opinion but instead try to convince fans of the series that the game isn't fun or isn't all it could be. I like cut scenes, they're fun to watch, and can depict scenes that you couldn't possibly play through. I see no issue with the use of them, and if you don't like it then noone is forcing you to play the game, but I still enjoy them and you're just going to have to deal with that. |
Indeed.
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