Kasz216 said:
Also Physics and Quantum Physics may not imply a god, they don't imply there isn't a god either.
The way time works is a tricky thing thanks to space-time.
Based on our original thoughts of time we thought "When did time start?." It had to have started at some point. Time could not be infinite. If it was infinite, with no start and no ending how would we have ever gotten to this point of you reading this. There would be Infinite time before this point. So it would take you an Infinite amount of time to reach this point... so you never would. The same could be said for any point in time.
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The part I bolded there is the beginning logic for an argument known as "Kalam". The basics of Kalam are that you cannot traverse an infinite number of events to get to now so the past cannot be infinite which logically leads most people to believe the past must be finite. But this logic is deceptive and I myself actually subscribed to it for quite some time. It is when you realise that in an infinite universe there are infinite events happening at every instant that at every instant we are breaking the foundation of Kalam. So relative to any observer there are an infinite number of events happening infinitely long ago almost by definition of the universe.
But philosophically we can show where Kalam goes wrong, think about it like this...If you were sitting in an infinite expanse of ocean, you would not say that it is impossible to be in the ocean only that it is impossible to find its beginning or end. In this way it is quite possible for us to be part of an infinite universe, Kalam mistakes an inability to locate ourselves in an infinite body without reference as an inability to exist within an infinite body. Kalam in no way proves anything other than that we have an inability to comprehend the past of our universe at the moment..whether it be infinite or finite.
tarheel91 said: Actually. If you don't believe in god you should believe in Pink fire breathing dragons. In an infinite existance they've likely existed at some point before now as well as just about everything else you can think of. Except for god I guess. |
You missed the point that is made I believe, its not that in an infinite universe of space and/or time everything will happen. Its that everything that is possible will happen. The discussion here is essentially whether god is possible, and then if he is possible, did he create the multiverse and us? And if he did, then how? I don't ask those questions to imply he is not possible, only because I genuinely would like to know.
@tarheel91,
I don't go much into the scripture side of things, but I respect that some people find truth in it. I think it is a choice we all have to make, where do we look for our answers? And each person seems to choose a slightly different path.
On the topic of intelligent design, the reason I find no truth in it currently is because you can break down those complexities into their simplest most basic forms. And in those forms nobody finds much intelligent design behind it given the nature of quantam mechanics. But when you take that next step forward, these basic structures following their basic rules produce these complex things. To me this does not logically lead to intelligent design, but rather leaves the question open. It could be intelligent design sure, but it just as easily could be happenstance given the scope of the universe and the time it has had. What you have to keep in mind is that forces are constantly working against each other to find equilibrium, then you need to determine what does that really rule out?
Kasz216 said By saying there is no god you imply infinite existance. From a scientific standpoint anyway. Those that don't believe in a God believe in an infinite existance of the universe. Or atleast those that believe so out of science as opposed to just not wanting to believe in God. Once again I suggest "A Brief History of time" followed up by some more Stephen Hawking reading. As he puts it. "The Boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary." The Universe would be self-contained and not anything outside itself. IT would neither be created or destroyed. It would just be." It's all due to "Imaginiary Time". Really if your going to be an atheist "A Brief History of Time" is a must read so you know what you are believing in as opposed to worrying only about what you don't believe in. Personally I believe in Physics, Quantum Physics and God. It should be noted however that even Stephen Hawking doesn't believe there is definitly no god. Just that if god exists he works in a very logical way and is arbitrary about it just making stuff appear. |
I don't think a lack of god implies infinite existance at all. This is basically taking and saying "everything we don't understand had to be gods work". There is no reason to believe that any other universe in the multiverse or even the multiverse itself follows laws of phsyics anywhere near ours. We simply do not know if the natural state of nothingness could spring forth something, we cannot fathom how but it doesn't make it impossible and this is such a fundamental mistake that it pains me when people make it.
This point is quite easily illustrated by considering a group of men sitting in a cave with a fire behind them. If we were to assume they had spent their lives in the cave facing the wall staring at their shadows projected by the fire and never turned around to know what was causing the light to project onto the wall they stared at, there would be no way for them to fathom the concept of fire or indeed even the world outside the cave and no way for them to explain either. And yet we can quite easily account for both. There have been a number of situations where mankind has been simply unable to explain things, chaos theory is a prime example of this. Just because we have no explanation does not mean it is inexplicable, in the same way that just because we have a list of explanations does not mean the correct explanation has to be on the list, or indeed even that only one explanation is true.
Kasz216, I think we share similar views actually, and I have ordered the book you suggested (it has been on my list for a while actually but this debate as spurred me to finally purchasing it). But I will say I have already done an immense amount of reading on the subjects it covers, I am purchasing it to add his incites to my knowledge and hopefully for new eloquent ways to explain my thoughts.
PS - Anyone who reads the book must realize that it was published in 1988, so the science is likely to have changed significantly for some of his points. In fact, there was a show on the science channel they play every now and then about Professor Hawking that talks about exactly how much has changed. The last 20 years have been huge for our understanding of our universe.
