That Guy said:
No takers on the Biblical accounts? I suppose I'll have to respond to them:
The red/purple cape:
The gospel writers didn't have access to Hex Codes and web colors, so we don't know exactly what kind of purple the cape was. Mark and John say that is was purple, and Matthew says that it was red. So the three gospels agree that there was a red hue to the cape. So perhaps the cape was more of a reddish purple or a maroon or something.
How many angels/men?
The accounts of Mark and Matthew say they saw a man, Luke says 2 men, and john says 2 angels.
Mark and Matthew may have just drawn the attention to the man who was speaking, as the other probably didn't say anything. This has occured before, notably in the account where Jesus expells the demons and lets them go into the swine, as Matthew 8:28 describes 2 demon possessed men while Mark and Luke refer to just 1 demon possessed man. It may have just been one man that actually had a conversation with Jesus, and thus Luke and Mark put more emphasis on that.
As for Angels/Men, all throughout the old testament, there have been accounts of Angels having the appearance of men. The Genesis account where angels materialized into the forms of men, for example. Another one with the account of Lot and the angels leading lots family out of Sodom. So the gospels say that they saw men, but they were really angels who had the appearance of men.
The "second" creation account:
Note verse 17 of Genesis chapter 2 where God is saying that it is not good for man to be walking alone. The end of the verse ends the quotation, and then a mini-recap of why God had said that. He created the animals, and when Adam was observing them, but he didn't have a helper, so then God created the woman as a helper. So this "second creation account" was moreso an explanation as to why God created the woman.
Creative "days." As I mentioned, there was no specific timeframe during these creative days, so they could have very well been millions and millions of years that have passed between say the first day and the 2nd day. Some people take Peter's "1 day in Gods eyes is as 1000 years" literally and apply that to the creative days. But its more like a similie, much like how
"a picture is worth 1000 words"
The 2nd day you mentioned with oceans and waters above the sky. Waters above the sky doesn't sound too far fetched to me. To me it sounds like the primitive earth had a dense cloud cover (much like venus except without the poison gases), apparently there was a high amount of water vapor in the cloud cover as well, which helps to explain day 4.
There came to be lights, the sun to dominate the daytime and and the moon and starts to dominate the night. But as I understand it, the "heavens and the earth" were created (our physical universe) before day 1 started. If the primitive earth had a cloud cover, then one would not be able to see the sun and the moon as it is now. So sometime during the 4th day, perhaps the clouds weren't as dense and one could make out a greater light being the sun, and the lesser light being the moon. Much like if its an overcast day and you can't see the sun, but you know its daytime because its light outside.
End of the "world"
What was Jesus referring to when he spoke of the end of the world, or the system? Well if you read the context of what he said, he speaks of wars and reports or wars, famine, etc. etc. in verse 20 of luke 21, Jesus warns of Jerusalem being surrounded by enamped armies, and when you see that warning, you should flee, as the end is near.
Jerusalem was sieged by the roman armies in around 67 and then again in 70, where the city and temple were destroyed. So Jesus was talking about the end of the Jewish system and the destruction of the temple.
What did jesus say during his death?
Matt.27:46,50 says: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
Well apparently, he "cried again with a loud voice" before he died. What did he say?
He cried out again, according to John 19:30 "It is finished"
Then he probably bowed his head and said something else:
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
then died. that's how I see it.
How did Judas die?
You're right. Matthew says that Judas hanged himself. Acts tells of the results. Somehow, he (in concise terms) blew up. Most likely, Judas tried to hang himself on a tree at the edge of a cliff, but when he jumped off the cliff, the rope or the branch broke and he ended up with guts everywhere. Jersalem was a pretty hilly place, so this conclusion does seem plausible.
Joseph of Bethelem:
It wouldn't be a reach to assume that Joseph himself was born in Bethlehem and his family (parents, etc.) were based there as well. Did you know there were two Bethlehems in the Bible? Well Matthew cleared it up saying it was the Bethlehem which was David's city. This corresponds to Micah 5:2, where it prophesied that the messiah would come out of Bethlehem-Ephrathah.
Time of Jesus Death:
You do know that Jewish dates go from sunset to sunset, right? The passover celebration was celebrated the night of Nisan 14 (of the jewish calendar) and Jesus technically the same day, before the next sunset.
True, we have no original texts anymore, nor do we paper with Luke's autograph on it. Unfortunately, everything was written down on paper, and paper doesn't last forever. The only way we will know for sure is if we invent a time machine and go back in time or whatever. And my explanations are not at all perfect, but they are plausible. But that's what we're supposed to do right? Take the evidence and look at the different conclusions. It looks like you guys came to different conclusions than me. I'm cool with that.
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When I read your post I really had to smile. I tried to be angry and write a furious reply but I just couldn't. The faith is strong with this one :) Might I also add that I too occasionally enjoy a game of Space Channel 5.
That being said I would just like to say a few things in reply to your answer to some of the contradictions I brought up.
In the case of the color of the robe you supposed that the robe was a "reddish purple" or something. Perhaps, but in doing this you are saying that Matthew, Mark, and John's accounts were ALL wrong and the truth lies "somewhere in between". Although I can almost hear the protest that "they were not ALL wrong, they were all A LITTLE TRUE" :) I'm sorry but 50% true doesn't cut it for me. As far as the color of something is concerned you can either be wrong or right. The way you resolved the problem is also very interesting as usually if there is an eyewitness account of something and 3 people say it was one color and 1 says it was another wouldn't you first cast doubt on the 1 dissenter instead of mixing the two accounts?
Again in the case of the people at Jesus' tomb you try to smash all the stories together with a different strategy. This time some of the authors focused on some things some on others. I'm sorry but here in the account of Mark it clearly says they saw one man and in John it says they saw two angels. Now the man/angel thing I'll give up without a fight. You can have it. However one account says they saw one man/angel and the other account says they saw two. You can't have it both ways. Either one of these accounts is wrong or they are both wrong. Either way, as in the first case, this remains a solid contradiction.
Your defense of Genesis 2 is interesting. It's the first time I've heard it defended like that. It is a unique but also untenable position. In Genesis 2:18 God says "It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner." So God sets out trying to make him a partner in 2:19-20. "So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper as his partner." Man was alone and God wanted to give him a partner so God made a whole bunch of stuff from the earth. This did not provide a partner. Only then did God make woman in Genesis 2:22. In Genesis 2 animals were made after man as an attempt to find him a partner. Again making a contradiction.
About the whole 6 days thing, its just a pet project of mine which I shouldn't have even brought up but I still can't find a reasonable explanation as to why they would use "God" days for the creation of the world and regular days everywhere else. Do you really believe that the people reading the Bible more than 1000 years ago understood this as a metaphor? So what was the point of this passage?
On to the second coming. You want to read this passage from Jesus as not about the end of the world but the destruction of a "system" of things. OK. I'm sure you are aware of all he says about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory" just before this. And that the end of this system will be the sign that "he is near, at the very gates"(Matthew 24:33) Maybe it just takes a long time for the Son of Man to leave the gates then. But if thats the case how do you reconcile that with this statement : "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom"(Matthew 16:28) Jesus thought the coming of the Son of Man would be in their generation. It was not.
About Jesus' last words.... hmmm.... You seem to have really tried to dig your feet in here so I'm tempted to just pass over this one. The question still remains though why they all decided to just leave parts out. Did they get together and say "OK, you put this one in and I'll put this one in." This seems absurd but then what do you propose? That they forgot? They just weren't paying attention when Jesus was on the cross? Obviously not. Then what? They only heard the parts they wrote down? Did he say these things quietly? If so it certainly seems to contradict the idea that he "cried out".
Now on to Judas' death. Once again a valiant attempt to smash the two stories together. OK if you are willing to believe that Judas, in his attempt to kill himself, blew open his guts I guess the only way to settle it is a time machine. What then of the story of the name of the potter's field called the "Field of Blood".
Matthew 27:5-8 "Throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money." After conferring together, they used them to buy the potter's field as a place to bury foreigners. For this reason that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day."
and
Acts 1:18-19 "Now this man [Judas] acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. This became known to all the residents of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood."
Not only is the story of how the field got its name different but the people who purchased it are different! In Matthew its the priests and in Acts its Judas. Even on top of this the "chief priests" when talking about how this was fulfilling a prophecy (Matthew 27:9) mistakenly place this "prophecy" in Jeremiah instead of Zechariah 11:13 where it came from!
As far as your reply to Schopenhauer, you seem to have just avoided the very problem he pointed out. Some sources say Jesus died on Nisan 14 and some say Nisan 15. That's what he meant when he said 3 gospels make the crucifixion after Passover.
About Joseph it seems kind of a stretch to just assume that he was from Bethlehem. On top of that if you just read what Luke 2:4 says "Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David." it seems Schopenhauer is right. Sorry about using bold but with this wording its hard to see it any other way than a requirement to go to the house of your ancestors.
And about Ephrathah we know next to nothing. We don't know if it was the ancient name of Bethlehem, or if it was absorbed into Bethlehem or what.
Wow that was kinda fun. Lets do some more!
Does God tempt people?
James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
Are they both right?
Hey how about: Who was Joseph's father?
Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."
Was it Jacob or Heli? Someone is wrong here.....
How many animals went in the ark?
Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Was it a pair or "three by sevens" of clean animals? Either way one of these statements is wrong.
Did fowl come from the water as in Genesis 1:20-21 or from the land as in Genesis 2:19?
Where was Jesus' first sermon?
Matthew 5:1-2 "When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. then he began to speak, and taught them saying:"
Luke 6:17 " He came down with them and stood on a level place with a great crowd of his disciples and a great multitude of people from all Judeah, Jerusalem, and the coast of Tyre and Sidon."
So did he go UP a mountain or DOWN to a plain?
I look forward to your response. I'm curious to know how many of these can be put together to attempt to save the Bible.
