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moe nl said:
To say that belief in God requires nothing but 'blind faith' does not match up to the Bible, which says that Jesus offered 'Many convincing proofs' that he was the son of God. One problem with the western church today is that we don't truly believe that we can do those things, so we don't try.


so if I realy realy realy realy believe and want to fly i can?
if i realy realy believe I will grow 10 cm longer and I realy believe I could i would?


Even an athiest would have a hard time denying the existence God if God's people were out healing the sick on a daily basis in the streets

duh, thats just easy to say that would be the same that people who think aliens doesnt excist will eventually believe when they would see a greenshaped creature from outerspace.





Exactly



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That Guy said:

 I will welcome the challenge. If you want me to research the subjects and show you what I come up with, then so be it.

The roman census is the first subject that interested me, as I never questioned it in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius

Apparently there was a census, and there has been some debate as to when it actually occured. But the fact that it was recorded by the historian Josephus adds to the credibility that something like a census existed at the time.

I'll do more research and get to the other ones when I get more free time.

One question though:

If these men who lived in the 1st century made all these things up, why would they go through so much trouble being persecuted and even dying for what they knew was a fake? 


ThatGuy,

As long as I have convinced you at the very least that there is a very large field of debate, and that Biblical claims can not be taken just at face value, I would be happy.  As you could probably see from the Wikipedia page, there is massive debate back and forth on if this census took place, and if so when it did. You would find me on the side that it did not take place (not the one the bible says occured anyway). This is by no means an opinion that comes from nowhere, but is a real debate inside the world of biblical criticism. In fact I see this story and others as part of an overall pattern within the bible.

If you want more examples, you could look at the creation myth in Genesis. The world is created in two different ways. First the animals are created, then man. In the second story man is created, then the animals. In the Exodus story, we are told that 600,000 men, we can assume about the same number of women (600,000-400,000) and some children are wandering out of Egypt, but that they only took 2 servants along with them. 2 for over one million people? There are some who doubt the entire Exodus story.  Why does the story of Lazarus, a very signifigant story, appear only in the book of John (the latest gospel written)? This would seem to be a story that the other writers would probably have told if they had known about it, and the books being written closer to the time of Jesus one would assume would have more uncorrupted information to work with. If I bring up more, it will just bog up the conversation, and i dont think it will be very productive so Ill stop here.

Enough of that, on to your question. First we are not exactly sure who wrote the Gospels of the bible. However without a doubt, it was not Jesus disiples. (as I'm sure you know) We dont know exactly what these authors faced in their world, or how they acted. What we can guess is that these stories were passed on by word of mouth before they got to the ears of the writers themselves.  And as anyone knows stories passed on by word of mouth change very fast and very easy. Stories get mixed together, parts fogotten, parts "remembered",  and things not relavent may get thrown in. That can all happen easily in just 5 years, but think about the effect of 50 years passing. You would be surprised how many gods have similar stories attached to them. Anyway, what I am saying is that perhaps many errors can be accounted for in this way.  Some errors seem more logical and deliberate. It sounds like they started with the conclusion "Jesus is God" and went in search of any story or tidbit they could prove it to others. (Using the Old Testament, of course) However I dont doubt for a minute that they really belived that Jesus was God.

 @rickthestick2

You said: "My"Christianity is by the book, common sense, ethics, morality, and human thought all which God gave me. I don't want you to be my enemy please understand. But you come in posting about the contraversies and misconceptions in the Bible and go on about how there is all things wrong riddled in the Bible. It's more like you come in looking for a fight. "

Writing a critique of the bible does not at all mean that I want a fight. In fact I think that it means that I take the bible very seriously, perhaps more than most. When it says something I would like to know if it is true or not. There is no reason to feel threatened if the Bible is "attacked", if it is true then you should have no fears. If it is false, then its time to take out our erasers and red pens. However it is impossible to be "by the book" about the bible as you state. The book itself has different messages and is very hard even for scholars to interpret.  The bible will always be your interpretation of it, mixed with how much context and facts surrounding it you understand. You obviously dont believe in old testament morality, and much of the other regular insanity that the ancient Jews engaged in. Again let me say, a literal interpretation of the bible is not very helpful or productive. But as you said, enough of this.

On the question of "Is there a god?" you stated:

I understand what you're saying. But know this, the word of God doesn't come through the book alone (at least according to Christianity). Anyways, "if" God exists, first you have to understand that just because you're Christian that doesn't mean that you are given eternal life. The Bible teaches us that the people who will be brought into heaven are from ALL walks of life, great or small, and from ALL levels of Faith, great or small. People may not be devout Christians but they may be shown the Mercy of God simply because God loves them all. Ok, so basically what i'm saying is that it's not about choosing the right book out of a bunch, God doesn't work that way. If a man (or women) really thinks deep inside they'll find God simply because that is how God works. He's not going to make getting into heaven difficult for someone, he actually wants people in heaven.

The question we must ask is not "What is the word of God?" but the question we must ask is "What is God?/ What is God like?" Because the Word of God isn't just a book, the Word of God is God himself. (see John Chapter 1) "

Although I am sympathetic to your opinion, I believe church doctrine is that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.  You dont seem to believe that (judging from your statements) but its what the church repeats daily. I would more like the god you described.

However concider this; the core of Christianity is the resurrection. Suppose that you discover a god but this god will not raise you from the dead, will not create a heaven or a hell, but just sits and watches strange sacks of mostly water debate on what books he wrote all day long. When you die, you are dead. However it is a very loving god and loves all humanity. How compelling would this god be? I would think not very to a great deal of people. In our vision of the world, God is compelling because he commands and promises. This we find in our books. These promises cannot be intuited alone.

However I will repeat, God or No God, it makes no difference if we dont have anything more to go on than just that.  It would be nice to assume that we can get in touch with god just by being good, but we dont really know that either do we? At least not without some kind of authority or philosophy to tell us why this should be so. In fact all evidence suggests that we really have a hard time getting in contact with this being or it helping us know what to do all by ourselves. This is evidenced by the fact that the world is 95% suffering, 3%boredom, and 2%Happiness.  Or perhaps this is evidence that we are in touch with our creator, its just that our creator was actually cruel and evil. Why assume that god wants life and goodness? It could easily want death and immorality. Gnostics thought that an evil being made the world...

@moe nl

You stated:


when its stated that God is all made up by some drunk or stoned people long long long ago there will be 87% of poeple unhappy because they believe and their believe and hope is basically broken like throwing a brick on a glass wall.
87% of the people is around 5.75 billion people.

so for the world (and it sounds weird for someone who doesnt believe at all) it would be better that God would be real. bcasue 5.7 billion people going crazy is more worse then 660 million people (altho alot to).

 That is far too utilitarian for me. I cant travel down that road with you :) Sometimes dispair can be just as "useful" as happiness.

 



There is some serious "I'm the center of the universe" mentality when it comes to religion. I find it's pretentious and divisive.

By a show of hands, who believes in Zeus? Come on, don't be shy. How about Ra? Any Ra supporters? What about Thor? He wields a mighty hammer you know?

Christians, why not convert to Islam? Obviously Islam is more accurate, simply by faith.
Jews, why not convert to Buddhism? Obviously Buddhism is more accurate, simply by faith.
Islam, why not convert to Hinduism? Obviously Hinduism is more accurate, simply by faith.

When faith is involved, you simply have a war between words. There is no substance within arguments because their is no basis. It's a he said she said type of thing. Science on the other hand provides a very elegant and robust method of analysis. We have airplanes, microprocessors, skyscrapers, etc thanks to science and the scientific method.

It's OK to not know everything. It takes a lot of time and effort to gain new understanding, but we will get there. Maybe not in this generation, but the next. In the mean time don't let preconceived or superstitious ideas deter us from reality.



(quote) 

ThatGuy,

As long as I have convinced you at the very least that there is a very large field of debate, and that Biblical claims can not be taken just at face value, I would be happy.  As you could probably see from the Wikipedia page, there is massive debate back and forth on if this census took place, and if so when it did. You would find me on the side that it did not take place (not the one the bible says occured anyway). This is by no means an opinion that comes from nowhere, but is a real debate inside the world of biblical criticism. In fact I see this story and others as part of an overall pattern within the bible.

(/quote)

I'm not going to quote the whole thing, as you can look like 3 posts up and read everything.  If you want me to do research, I can and will dig up information that will support my stand as well. It is by no credulity that I believe the things that I do. I'm fine with the fact that there is a lot of dialogue about the things in Biblical history. Some things can get cleared up as time goes by and we unearth more information.

Just because there are some perceived contradictions doesn't mean that there lacks a explanation that reconciles the perceived contradiction.

For example, up until 100 years ago, no one thought that there was ever a King Belshazzar of Babylon in history, so they thought the Daniel account was totally made up (or written later in history). But then archeologists unearthed the Nabonidus Cylinder that confirmed the existence of his son, Belshazzar.

And what you see in the Gospels (it sounds that you have had some classes or some sort of education on the history of the Bible), the typical view is that Mark wrote the first book (because it was the shortest and most concise) and then the others used Mark as a base and further embellished upon it.

 On the other hand, I see it more like accounts of 4 witnesses with 4 different points of view. Matthew, a tax collector, for example, would have paid more more attention to the exact amounts of money or whatever. Luke, a doctor, would have picked up medical conditions and such. For example, Matthew and Mark say that Peter's mother in law had a fever, whereas Luke said she had a *high fever,* which was a more precise diagnosis. It doesn't mean that Luke was wrong, or Matthew and Mark were wrong, but when we look at all four accounts, it gives us a bigger picture of what really happened.

For the example you mentioned about Mary at Jesus tomb, one gospel lists Mary, one of the others lists Mary and Mary Magdelene and Simone, and another one lists the two marys and Joanne. That just shows that there were other women that were perhaps not mentioned in the account. In the culture at the time, women weren't mentioned too often by name. What was Peter's wife's name? Jesus had "sisters" but what were their names and how many of them were there? Its not mentioned, but we can safely assume they existed (the answer to the sisters is at least 2, as "sisters" is plural). 

Matthew was an apostle, John was an apostle, Mark was said to get most of his information from Peter, and Luke accompanied compiled together eye witness accounts when he was with Paul.

This would be as if a doctor, a mechanic, and a chinese person were to witness a crime scene. The doctor may have noticed some details about the victim, the mechanic would probably have a better recollection of what the escape vehicle looked like, and the chinese person would be able to tell if they were speaking in a chinese dialect (cantonese or mandarin). All together, they could flesh out a pretty good picture of whatever went on.

 As for when these things were written, something huge would be easily recalled. Go ask a WWII veteran what they were doing during Pearl Harbor. Can you remember what you did during 9/11? Or you can ask what your parents were doing when Kennedy was shot. You would think if you hung out with the Son of God for 3 years, you would be able to recall it pretty quickly. 


That Guy's two cents:

I don't know why so many people readily believe in the crazy string theories and cosmological conjectures that cosmologists come up with. If we actually looked at what evidence (sometimes suprisingly little evidence) they had to work with, we probably wouldn't be coming to the same conclusions they did (nor would we have the insane knowledge of math to make any sense of it). Instead, we usually take whatever they say for truth and we believe whatever's trendy in the scientific community. In reality, there are hundreds of dead, disproven grand unified theories, and I'm pretty sure there are dozens more that are being debated. In fact, science is a living breathing thing. Its not set in stone and things change as we observe more and get to know more about the universe.

History (and more specifically, Bible history) too is a living, breathing thing. We also put insane amounts of faith in what archeologists and historians say, but if we looked at the artifacts and what they had to work with, you'd be suprised at how little *stuff* there is sometimes. There are plenty of uncertainties in history, and like in the field of science, historians and scholars work with little they have. As more evidence is collected, they can paint a clearer picture of what *really* happened. 

I urge everyone to challenge what they know; that's the only way we can all grow as intellectuals and as adults. If we blindly accept everything we hear, then we are no different than parrots, repeating whatever we are taught. This applies to science and math as much as it does religion. Even the apostle John instructs us to "test every inspired expression" to see if they are true. 

sorry for the long post. 



To Schopenhauer:

Writing a critique of the bible does not at all mean that I want a fight. In fact I think that it means that I take the bible very seriously, perhaps more than most. When it says something I would like to know if it is true or not. There is no reason to feel threatened if the Bible is "attacked", if it is true then you should have no fears. If it is false, then its time to take out our erasers and red pens. However it is impossible to be "by the book" about the bible as you state. The book itself has different messages and is very hard even for scholars to interpret.  The bible will always be your interpretation of it, mixed with how much context and facts surrounding it you understand. You obviously dont believe in old testament morality, and much of the other regular insanity that the ancient Jews engaged in. Again let me say, a literal interpretation of the bible is not very helpful or productive. But as you said, enough of this.

 I'm sorry i ever caused this arguement, but before it closes i want you to understand that its not i feel threatened by anything, but i don't like accusations without examples. And Schopenhauer, your first post was filled with accusations without examples. Also, you're kind of right about my values about the Old Testament. I don't value the Old Testament much simply because i'm not a Jew, but i do, in a sense, follow all the laws of the Old Testament. People must realize that the Christ has come and gone, and the New Testament is established. Whatever, i'm sorry for this problem between me and you.

 However concider this; the core of Christianity is the resurrection. Suppose that you discover a god but this god will not raise you from the dead, will not create a heaven or a hell, but just sits and watches strange sacks of mostly water debate on what books he wrote all day long. When you die, you are dead. However it is a very loving god and loves all humanity. How compelling would this god be? I would think not very to a great deal of people. In our vision of the world, God is compelling because he commands and promises. This we find in our books. These promises cannot be intuited alone.

But a God who is not proven in all things is not God at all. What God would not instill in all his creation his own mark of Creation? Throughout humanity, people have realized there is a God not only because they don't understand why certain things happen, but because the whole concept of the Universe is void without something Divine. The Love of Jesus Christ however is spread by Faith. The reason why Jesus had his disiples and why he called upon Saul/Paul is because a Christian is given to the world the continue God's plan. So yes, Jesus Christ is the way, but what of before Christ? What of theose who have not yet heard of the Christ? Are they utterly damned to Hell? No, because God doesn't work that way. He loves all men and salvation for them is given through Christ but not by the way of the book.

 However I will repeat, God or No God, it makes no difference if we dont have anything more to go on than just that.  It would be nice to assume that we can get in touch with god just by being good, but we dont really know that either do we? At least not without some kind of authority or philosophy to tell us why this should be so. In fact all evidence suggests that we really have a hard time getting in contact with this being or it helping us know what to do all by ourselves. This is evidenced by the fact that the world is 95% suffering, 3%boredom, and 2%Happiness.  Or perhaps this is evidence that we are in touch with our creator, its just that our creator was actually cruel and evil. Why assume that god wants life and goodness? It could easily want death and immorality. Gnostics thought that an evil being made the world...

First I want to say men don't get in touch with God for being "good". Now about getting in contact with God, this too me is a foolish point. It is because people don't believe they can get in touch with God or that they don't believe in God or that people don't know what to do if they were in touch with God. It is because of Jesus Christ that humans have the gift of prayer. Everyone can get in touch with God, so i have trouble understanding your point. And please, do not blaspheme the spirit of God. That is a sin that Jesus says is unforgivible (if one truly believed in thier hearts that God is an evil spirit)

To Techmobowl: 

I'm sorry, are you saying that Science should replace all Religion? Because if you are, that really makes no sense whatsoever. Science cannot replace Religion, because the purposes and goals for each are very different.

Oh, and thanks to religion and Faith, Human beings have morality, reason, and laws. Did Science bring that? (I have nothing against science mind you). And about gaining new understanding, I don't like your view on this. Do you believe that in the next generation humans will just generally get smarter? Well i don't. To gain higher understanding of things, people need to think. Think beyond what they see they need to think beyond the universe and they should challenge everything they know and everything they believe in. Understanding doesn't come through time, understanding comes through thinking.



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@rickthestick2

No, what I said was that science supersedes faith.

Religion is composed of two things:

1) Culture
2) Faith

I have no problem with culture. Faith is what I have a problem with.


"Oh, and thanks to religion and Faith, Human beings have morality, reason, and laws. Did Science bring that?"

Morality can be derived from Social Darwinism. We are nice because it increases our chances for survival, not because some magician in the sky has set rules. Morality is not absolute, it is relative.

When some murdering madman goes around killing people it is bad from our perspective because it threatens our lives. When we are cornered by a murder it becomes good from our perspective to kill the murder in order to save our life. From the murdering madman's perspective it could be good because they get a chemical rush. From our perspective this person is mentally unstable. From the madman's perspective, they are simply following their DNA. Is their DNA bad or good? Neither, it simply isn't conducive of survival.

"To gain higher understanding of things, people need to think."

And that is exact opposite of faith.



i'm sad to see you're associating "faith" with "not thinking"

Also, you are bringing to light the darker side of social darwinism. Was Hitler's plans to cleanse the earth of "undesireables" good or bad? Well I guess neither. Hitler was just following his DNA.

short post! booyah!



That Guy said:
i'm sad to see you're associating "faith" with "not thinking"

Also, you are bringing to light the darker side of social darwinism. Was Hitler's plans to cleanse the earth of "undesireables" good or bad? Well I guess neither. Hitler was just following his DNA.

short post! booyah!

American Heritage Dictionary:

Faith

-n

Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

 

If it isn't based on logic, then what is it based on?

----------------------------

People had a choice to allow Hitler to do what he wanted. If they sat around and let him do what he wanted, then it would have been their fault. But people decided to rise up and fight back because they saw it as a threat to global stability and wanted to survive. In the end, Hilter got what came to him. Darwinism did it's job. We no longer have Hilter in the DNA pool.

 

Social Darwinism is quite simple and makes a lot of sense. It shows that you don't need a "higher being" to have morality. Why does Social Darwinism have to have a "dark side," as you put it? If you don't like reality, continue to live in your fantasy bubble.



First of all, i don't appreciate your condescending tone. I didn't post in this forum to be talked down to or to be belittled. If I'm just getting insults in this thread, then I don't see any reason to post here any longer. You can believe what you want, but you have no right to be condescending to anyone elses opinion.

Second of all, I don't accept your definition of faith.

Let's step out of my "fantasy bubble" (::rolls eyes::) and lets take God out of the connotation. If you had faith in your wife? what are you believing in? That your wife won't cheat on you right? Why would you have faith in her? Because you have no logical proof or material evidence? Or because she told you she loves you and she showed it?

What does it mean when you loan 20 bucks to a friend in "good faith"? Because you know that he will pay you back when he said he would right? Why would you believe him? Probably because you've loaned him money before and you know he's paid you back every time. If he was a shady individual and never paid back his loans, then you probably wouldn't have much faith in him.

I keep my money in the bank, because I have faith that I will be able to take X amount of dollars out of the bank whenever I want. I have faith that my money is backed the the government, so that I have confidence in doing business with the currency. Otherwise, I'd still be bartering chickens and goats.

I'd still say stuff like genetically engineering ourselves and weeding out "undesireables" is pretty dark. That's just my opinion. You start explaining off some things and its a pretty harsh way to describe people and phenomena (i.e. a statement like "there are more black atheletes because their ancestors were once slaves and were bred to be stronger and faster", etc. etc.). Maybe its just me, but I don't like describing people like that.



I think this whole argument can be summed up like this: Nobody knows for sure what all the secrets of the universe are. Some of us believe the earth just happened, for whatever reason. Some of us believe the earth was created by a being.

As far as I know, you guys are just figments of my imagination anyway, and I just fell asleep when I was 3 years old and I am just having a long dream.