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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - My thoughts on what's Wii's standard graphics should look like

Wii graphics should look like Fatal Frame IV, that looks amazing.



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We need more games with Lost In Blue 3 graphic quality.



Satan said:

"You are for ever angry, all you care about is intelligence, but I repeat again that I would give away all this superstellar life, all the ranks and honours, simply to be transformed into the soul of a merchant's wife weighing eighteen stone and set candles at God's shrine."

Bored4life said:
Resident_Hazard said:
sc94597 said:
Resident_Hazard said:
sc94597 said:
I'm making an analysis on this, and I'm coming to the conclusion that the wii does everything the original xbox does (even the gamecube was a capable of that) , but better by a considerable amount. It's not at the level of hd consoles, but not last gen either, and hope you read my analysis which should be done this month.

 

To my knowledge, based on a lot of reading on these systems, the Wii is roughly on-par with the original Xbox. Better in some ways, potentially weaker in others (talking CPU/GPU properties, not harddrive or online), but overall, it's a slightly more streamlined Xbox in it's overall horsepower. The Xbox was not exactly a current-gen system last generation. It was a step above in the way the Wii is now a step below. It was a step above in the way the TurboGrafx-16 was back in the day when it was competing with the NES and Master System. All were 8-bit systems, but the TG16 could handle 16-bit graphics.

The Dreamcast, PS2, and GameCube were all fairly comparable in overall horsepower--and of these three, the GameCube was quite a bit more powerful--and was also designed early on to be easy on developers. Early games like Luigi's Mansion and Pikmin were partially intended to show the deep detailed lighting and texture work the GC was capable of. Go back and look at some of the finer points of Luigi's Mansion--one of the things complained about with the N64 was it's painfully limited texture abilities. Luigi's Mansion was loaded with more detailed texture use--it was a showpiece for Nintendo to say, "we listened--the textures are everything you want them to be this time around." The original Xbox was pretty much a league ahead of the other three in every way except one minor area in which the GC was actually more powerful. (It dealt with a minor texture point--I don't remember the details, but the GC could handle this certain point at a factor of 8 and the Xbox at a factor of 4, however, the Xbox had a trick that doubled the use or speed, essentially making it the same as the GameCube. I'm sorry I don't remember the specific nature of this point, but it dealt with textures.)

Part of the reason the original Xbox only appeared to be on about the same level as the PS2 and GC was because the PS2 was the weakest and most popular system--so it was the default system. Easier to make a game on a weaker system and just port it to the slightly more powerful ones than it is to make a game optimized for a powerful system and port it backwards (like RE4 going from GC to PS2). This is, actually, the same thing happening with the Xbox360 and PS3. The X360 is the more popular, slightly weaker system--so it's a "default" system for a lot of developers. Then the games just get ported to the PS3 and/or PC. Doom 3 is about the only game that showed how much power the original Xbox had in it, and I'm fairly confident that even that game failed to fully utilize all that the system had to offer, graphically.

I'll keep an eye out for your analysis. Will it be on the board, or as an article?

Actually the wii is better than the xbox in all ways. Some say the wii can't pull of some shaders that the original xbox could, but that is because the architecture of the gamecube, and the wii support for the shaders, but you have to develope in a different way to utilize them. The gamecube in power was about equivalent to the xbox, but the xbox's gpu could do a little bit of things the gamecube's couldn't. Here is an article that satates the gamecube being able to pull everthing off the xbox could.

http://revoeyes.blogspot.com/2007/07/wii-has-more-power-than-you-think.html

"They only say it can't do some of the things the original Xbox could do, like shaders. They are very wrong though and they need to go back to Gamecube school (or talk to Factor 5's Juilan Eggebrecht) to find out that even the Gamecube could do everything the Xbox1 could do, only with a different method. The Xbox1 worked similar to a PC, so if developers made a game for it they would make it like a PC game. They couldn't do that with the Gamecube since developing a game on Gamecube was completely different. Custom shaders, custom lighting, custom textures - custom everything. Xbox and PC follow a code that most developers know and its not all custom. They have programmable shaders, like Shader Model 2.0 for instance."

The wii does everything the xbox does, but with some more things, and a little better in everywhere. Wait for my analysis. My analysis will be on the board. If it doesn't get critizied too much I will get a contributor to put it in the articles.

 


 

I would like to see the study that shows the GameCube could deliver all the same goods as the original Xbox. I've compared the specs in seperate windows side-by-side from Wikipedia, and the Wii is awfully close to the original XBox--and the original XBox seems awfully powerful compared to the GameCube.

I'm curious, are you factoring into your analysis the engine High Voltage developed for the Wii? It's clearly not pushing Xbox360-quality of graphics, but it's clear from some early footage that it's pulling of some impressive stunts. I'm one of the people that agree that Super Mario Galaxy pulled off all manner of stunts that most people thought were impossible on the Wii with the sharp, realistic lighting and real-time shadows, light-emitting particle effects, and massive high-poly characters. Keep in mind, their released tech demo listed all the aspects of the engine they'd built.

Also, if you will, I'd like to hear (read?) your opinion on whether or not the Wii can take better advantage of High Def TV's with a firmware update. I'm pretty sure it could be updated to stretch to one level higher than 480i.

I think that the sooner The Conduit, Disaster: Day of Crisis, and Factor5's (Kid Icarus) game come out, the better since these are all intended to be pushing the Wii's hardware to higher levels. I know, some of the released screenshots of Disaster have looked pretty bleak, but some of the released footage has also been pretty impressive. Like I said (potentially a different thread, I suddenly don't recall), I've watched gameplay footage of Alone in the Dark on the Wii and a lot of what I've seen has practically sold me on the game. It even looks like they may have the motion controls working almost perfectly. I'm hoping that game garners at least 80% for ratings because it's become a highly anticipated title for me. Finally, I think The Conduit will only get better and better looking as High Voltage finishes tweaking the engine.

 

That article you posted was pretty good, but I'd like to see a more recent one with some more details

Julian Eggerbrecht from Factor 5 pretty much confirmed that the GC was on par with the original Xbox.If I'm not mistaken Mikami did as well.

Julian's own words. Link:

http://revoeyes.blogspot.com/2007/09/wii-is-more-powerful-than-xbox-gamecube.html

Original:

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=1906

This whole mess started when Robbie Bach went on saying that the Wii was less powerful than the Xbox.Sadly analyst N'gai Croal who has no idea about tech went out and tried to agree with him and made himself look like an idiot.

I'm also surprised when you said that you did an analysis of the specs on Wikipedia because last time I checked GC's cpu beats the celeron of the Xbox and the TEV mimics anything that the NVidia gpu did.

The good thing aboput this is that when the Wii starts to get pushed we're gonna hear all the "I didn't know thw Wii could do that" comments which will no doubt give Wii even more points.Thanks to this propaganda being accepted earlier on by the biased gaming media this will turn out very well in the long run for Nintendo.This as well as third parties not being fully on board by 2010 to try and catch up ensures an unusually long lifecycle fro the Wii.

The only problem I have with this is that a successor to Wii coming out in 2015 is becoming more and more likely by the day.Good for Nintendo, but damn that's a long time from now.


 

Ahhh sweet.  Always nice to read articles on this kind of stuff I haven't seen. 

My own Wikipedialing comparison of the specific tech didn't factor in how these various inner systems work with one another.  I know the GameCube and Xbox both broke the mold by being, essentially, the first non-bit based consoles as the PS2 and Dreamcast (I believe) were the last consoles that were measured by "bits," with both being 128-bit systems.  System stats are so much harder to read and compare these days because you can always find a conversation like this:

"SystemX is better than SystemY because Circuit5 is more powerful in SystemX than SystemY's puny Circuit3."

"Ahh, but System Y uses BufferN which works with Circuit3, effectively making it more powerful."

"Shut up you stupid fanboy."

 

A real-life example is how the PS3 is supposed to be more powerful than the Xbox360, and I've read an article online in which a single issue--essentially a data read/write option--is gimped in the PS3 allowing the Xbox360 to potentially be the more powerful system.

It's funny, all these years I thought the Neo-Geo was the most powerful system during the 16-bit days.  I'm not sure why, but I believed it to be the only 24-bit console ever made only to find out that it uses a 16-bit system similar to the Genesis and that, in the end, the SNES had more powerful architecture.

 

My comparison came from larger key points:  GPU and CPU capability comparisons (in which case, the original XBox almost looks like it belonged in another generation when compared to the PS2), but again, my lack of total understanding of how these inner systems work with one another is another story. 

I guess the thing to do now is figure out, exactly how much more powerful, comparitively speaking, the Wii may be than the original Xbox.

 

In a sense, it's almost too bad that games aren't on some sort of cartridge any more.  Anything that the console itself couldn't do could sometimes be improved with hardware in a cartridge like the FX Chip used to do.  That's what gave the SNES strengths over the Genesis/Sega CD/32X in the end.  But it was also one of the unfortunate reasons Nintendo gimped the N64.



Nintendo's first comments were that the Wii is between 2.5 to 3 times as powerful as the GC.

Always pick their first statement.After it Nintendo will always give shifty info.

An example would be when Nintendo said they were killing off the Gameboy line with the DS.However people kept asking them if they were still supporting the Gameboy(i.e. they wanted it to be so) and Nintendo said yes.Many people never realized that Nintendo meant the GBA at the time and to this day still think that a new Gameboy might be released.



Prediction:
Disney will make KH3 with Nintendo.Yes,KH3 will be a Disney/Nintendo crossover.

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yushire said:
Squilliam said:
This is a pet peeve of mine. You should really replace the term "graphics" with the term "game engine".

What you want is a good quality game engine to produce good fidelity on the art assets and an appropriate game world.

What you also want is good artistry in the game to make that world come to life.

So good art on a good engine should yield you great looking games.

One question I have to ask is: Does Nintendo offer their game engines for use by third party developers? If not, why the hell not? Sony does this, and so does Microsoft... So it should be a given that developers have access to a good basic game engine.

 

The Wii was actually a pimped gamecube, even Ninty admitted to it, thats why an article says the Wii was 2 gamecubes duct tape together, so 3rd parties that developed GC before knows the ins and outs of the Wii. The problem was they didnt pursue on pushing Wii's graphics even they knew its only a pimped GC.

 


I've always thought this. The wii is a gamecube with a motion sensor controller. The public fell for it though!



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@ Resident Hazard, Yes you are correct. .WHile the xbox in raw specs was more powerful, it was basically an old pc. It's cpu was simlar to a celeron, it's gpu was similar to a geforce 2. These architectures are very inefficient. It may be more powerful, but it can't use all or even most of that power. The gamecube on the other hand was what console processors should look like. The gpu had many seperate components for each thing it need to do graphically. The cpu and gpu I would say were very very very efficient allowing probably 75%+ of the power to be used.
Then you also have the different architectures, affecting how the console does these things as stated in the article. I would say the gamecube was ALMOST on par with the original xbox. NOw the wii does the same thing the gamecube does but faster, and even more efficiently. Theres also additions to the hardware that makes it easier to do some things. The wii compared to the xbox allows for 8x more textures compressed, compared to the gamecube and the original xbox limit at 6x. The wii also has a chip for physics between the cpu and gpu I believe reading somewhere. It has many more things. The wii's architecture probably allows for it to work fully efficient. The ram is faster and there is more of it. There is less latency issues. Alot of things that professional developers ignore, yet others see. It terms of power the wii may be equivalent to the original xbox,when talking from a gpu cpu standpoint, but in terms of overall graphical capabilities it is far ahead the xbox.

@Bored4Life
That is what I keep saying, but people think im outrageous for saying it. I believe the wii is 2.5 times more capable graphically than the xbox. While in raw power their equal, but the wii has many things the original xbox does, and is able to use more of it's resources because it's highly efficient architecture.

 

Edit: Oh and in response of the wii being capable of higher resolutions than 480p. Yes I believe it could. WHile it won't look too nice to games pushing the wii in 480p and isn't really pratical. I do believe games like fps' would benefit a little from 720p, but anythng else on the wii would have less than it would in 480p and wouldn't be pratical. I believe maybe some sub hd resolutions that alot of ps360 games have is a more better fit.

 

Also nintendo never gave official specs. All of the specs came from the developers of the chips or 3rd parties, but none of them went into detail. There is alot we don't know about the wii's hardware, because of this and analysis' won't be too acurate until more is known. I will try to make mine as accurate as possible. 



Oh jeez not another one of these threads!

Well, only one thing to do...

 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U-BiHdefxJU

 

http://www.homestarrunner.com/gamework.html

 



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

sc94597 said:

Edit: Oh and in response of the wii being capable of higher resolutions than 480p. Yes I believe it could. WHile it won't look too nice to games pushing the wii in 480p and isn't really pratical. I do believe games like fps' would benefit a little from 720p, but anythng else on the wii would have less than it would in 480p and wouldn't be pratical. I believe maybe some sub hd resolutions that alot of ps360 games have is a more better fit.

 

Also nintendo never gave official specs. All of the specs came from the developers of the chips or 3rd parties, but none of them went into detail. There is alot we don't know about the wii's hardware, because of this and analysis' won't be too acurate until more is known. I will try to make mine as accurate as possible.


I think you are overestimating Wii's graphical capabilities. According to wikipedia, the Wii's framebuffer is similar to Gamecube's (3MB split into 1MB texture memory and 2MB framebuffer). Higher resolutions need more framebuffer memory as there are more pixels to fit into the framebuffer. 720p is 1280x720 = 921600 pixels wheras 480p is 640x480 = 307200 pixels. Now, I don't know what kind of colour format they're using (some say it's YUY2 which means 16bits per pixel) but you have to multiply the number of pixels by the pixel depth which is something between 16bits and 32bits (2 bytes - 4 bytes). Then you'd probably have to double that, if they're double buffering (most probably) and you'll see there's not enough framebuffer memory for 720p output. Even if it had a bigger framebuffer, it would have to have enough fill rate to actually render those pixels.

PS. Oh, and take a look at this, these guys seem to know much more than me: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46169



colonelstubbs said:
yushire said:
Squilliam said:
This is a pet peeve of mine. You should really replace the term "graphics" with the term "game engine".

What you want is a good quality game engine to produce good fidelity on the art assets and an appropriate game world.

What you also want is good artistry in the game to make that world come to life.

So good art on a good engine should yield you great looking games.

One question I have to ask is: Does Nintendo offer their game engines for use by third party developers? If not, why the hell not? Sony does this, and so does Microsoft... So it should be a given that developers have access to a good basic game engine.

 

The Wii was actually a pimped gamecube, even Ninty admitted to it, thats why an article says the Wii was 2 gamecubes duct tape together, so 3rd parties that developed GC before knows the ins and outs of the Wii. The problem was they didnt pursue on pushing Wii's graphics even they knew its only a pimped GC.

 


I've always thought this. The wii is a gamecube with a motion sensor controller. The public fell for it though!


There once was a time when merely doubling the power of a console was good enough. Ahhh the good ol' days...

So SONY only doing what NInty did in the old days then about not phasing out existing product to favor the new product.

Why didnt bdbdbd, resident hazard, rol, sc94597 and other members here should replace the "so called" professional analysts like Pachter. I think you are better analyst than they are.



end of core gaming days prediction:

 

E3 2006-The beginning of the end. Wii introduced

 

E3 2008- Armageddon. Wii motion plus introduced. Wii Music. Reggie says Animal crossing was a core game. Massive disappointment. many Wii core gamers selling their Wii.

 

E3 2010- Tape runs out

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/ICG_Tape_runs_out.jpg