Sigh....... you guys are confusing him even more.

I'll continue.

Yes.There are 2 upmarkets.

One following the HD consoles.
And the other, much smaller upmarket supporting the Wii. i.e. Nintendo fans from previous generations.

Nintendo is not and I repeat is not trying to pull in gamers from the first one(not yet).These people were never going to buy the Wii.These are the people who you see on IGN, Gamespot and Kotaku who deny any merit that the Wii has.
Nintendo's goal is basically to create it's own market comprising of it's loyal followers,rejected gamers and the new gamers.
Nintendo will then upstream many of the new users using the games I mentioned above as well as Mario Sluggers to help upstream these customers.
The result being just like the DS.A huge market comprised of Low,Mid and High Tiered gamers.
Even though the percentage of the upmarket will be lower, the actual number would be higher thus creating an enviroment where third parties have to develop core titles for the Wii or risk the wrath that another competing third party creates a franchise killer on the system that appeals not only to the Wii upmarket but the other as well and then they also start to buy Wiis aswell get sucked in and forget about going back.This is called gamer drift and has killed brands in the past.

There is a thread here asking if Square is afraid of competition and the answer is simple.
If they release XIII on the PS3 there would be a void that cannot be filled with the spinoff since unlike the Gamecube where people would be satisfied,they will now feel themselves cheated.This will allow another party to potentially build a brand killer that is more appealing on a console not available to the HD crowd.If word gets around that it's better than Final Fantasy, disinterest will kick in and their entire line on Final Fantasy games,manga,novels,toys,figurines will be disrupted and the losses might kill them.This is no joke.No amount of remakes will save them.Hence the PS3 bitching from Wada.

This is why people like Epic Games have started making unprovoked attacks on the console.(No Unreal Engine licensees could mean death for them)


So for now Nintendo will not focus on the upmarket.It will continue to focus on bridge games for now and let third party games like ToS2,FFrame4,Conduit and MadWorld to keep the upmarket interested.Like I said they are not trying to scare away the new gamers.This is why they never pushed MP3 since it was too early in the lifecycle(They did do something very interesting with it though and it is becoming more apparent everyday) and just allowed the upmarket to enjoy it themselves.

Games like the new Zelda and FZero will come to front later so we will need to wait on Nintendo.
And don't believe that crap about third parties making casual games to cash in and taking Nintendo's lead and beleiving that casual games sell.This is bullshit.Casual fallacy.
Onimusha12 has said it correctly in his sig.Most big third party companies are feigning support and really wish that the Wii would die and only develop for it to make up for their losses that they never saw coming despite the clear evidence.

Only 2 console third parties even know how to push the Gamecube and the others will never admit it.Shitty 8 year old PC design and they can't push it.A guy from Square said that they always make games with the graphics first and then concept later,the only exception beingthe Wiiware game.That's right no exception.It means they went all out on Crystal Bearers.Look at Crystal Bearers and then look at Rogue Leader and tell me if FFCC even pushes Gamecube graphics.The game got delayed so they can learn to push it.That is what CrystalTools is all about.I've followed them closely all of last year and am 100% sure of this.Companies who can't push Gamecube trying to push the HD consoles.Epic fully knows what is going on and thus making money off poor suckers who need help .Look at the rock textures in MGS4.They look like ass.Konami suck at HD.Heck look at the newer improved Silent Hill screens.......shit.This is the main reason for HD costs being higher than they should have been.They worked on pushing an unconventioanl console(PS2) and learnt nothing that would benefit them in the long term.

Here are other companies that hate Nintendo

Ubisoft:Yes really
EA
Konami
Take2 etc

So like I said Nintendo will only focus on making bridge games for now.All I ask is for you to sit back and see the upmarket games selling more and more as time goes by.And HD supporters stumble.

Malstrom mentioned the irony of "hardcore" gaming sites clinging onto The World Ends with You for the DS.(i.e.the same people who called the DS a shitty kiddy casual handheld).

These tools don't even realize this as yet and continue to insult the Wii.Hypocisy is now inevitable with these newfags.

Bored4life said:  1) I'm not finished.I think I said that. 2) Using remote in different ways is not upstreaming it's downstreaming to show the stubborn hardcore that there is more to life than analog sticks and Dpad.The downmarket was introduced to gaming through these games so their is no upstreaming.The controls might be more rubust but the user experience is the same.Upstreaming games are SMB,Brawl and MK:Wii 3)I never said that downstreaming doesn't occur.Look at the OP's post and you will see that he has barely a clue on the issue. Information overload is a recipe for confusion.I'm taking my time with my typing and thinking how best to relate my next point.

I thought you were going to post if discussion gets running. Well, anyway, great posts and i forgot to say last time that welcome to VGChartz.



The reason why i didn't count Wii Sports and Mario Party for the same level introductionary games, is because of the level of realism in the games. Wii Sports introduces real life sports played in real life fashion. When Mario Party is a step forward with introducing the similar control mechanics in the videogaming, fantasy, world. The problem it also tries to fight is, that outside Wii Sports, everything else is seen as kids stuff, Wii Sports being the only adults game. By making this important transition (WS->MP8/WW), it lures the new audience "out of their boxes", into the videogames world.

@Yushire: Listen to Louie.
The problem with 3rd parties is, that they walk a step behind Nintendo. Nintendo has planned its strategy years advance and 3rd parties just try to play catch-up, which mean they always are step behind.
Look at RRR, it's success wasn't based on it being a party game, it's success was because it was released at the same time with Nintendos own similar releases.
Now when you look at some 3rd party games, such as the two Resident Evil games, although they are from popular franchise, other is a two-year old port and the other is a spinoff, both still have shelf space at retail and both are still selling. 3rd parties build their own market on Wii, by releasing games in the genre they like and infiltrating the market Nintendo has generated with its own high profile releases. There wasn't much space for competition in platformers when SMG came out, but releasing a platformer today, would lead to good sales, since people who wanted SMG 6 months ago, are in need for a new platformer. Basically how it's going to happen this on is, that when Nintendo releases a big game in genre X, 3rd parties follow with a game in the same genre with a 6 months to a year delay. Each of them are not going to top Nintendo, but they make a lot of high selling games. If they would want to top Nintendo, they would need to be a step ahead of them (like Capcom was).
When you look at the number of shooters Wii has, expect CoD5 to be a first week million seller on Wii.

OK, now I get it. To sum it up there are no downmarketing in Ninty's part, only Ninty downstream their core market, which is a loyal fan of Ninty to introduced their new control schemes, and the non gamer follow suit. Then theres bridge games, proven with SSBB and Mario Galaxy, to introduced the new non gamer in the world of video games. So as Mario Kart Wii, which also bridge games for non gamers to enjoy driving games.

Then theres upstreaming not to upstream the downmarket, since there really no downmarket but to upstream the non gamer crowd in gaming. So there are 2 types of market Ninty is catering to, the non gamer which Ninty wants to cater to and their core gamer which is Ninty's loyal fans. So casual gamers and core gamers was really just a moot, theres no casual gamer, only non gamer which first introduced in gaming with Wii Sports and Wii Fit and the core gamers, which is Ninty's loyal fan.

Then theres 2 upmarkets, one is the HD consoles one and one is loyal Ninty fans one, the one HD consoles one isnt Ninty's target but the non gamer crowd and the loyal Ninty's crowd, so with these 2 markets Ninty will make a new market by combining these two markets. OOH I see, I see thanks for clarification.

bdbdbd said: Bored4life said:   @Yushire: Listen to Louie. The problem with 3rd parties is, that they walk a step behind Nintendo. Nintendo has planned its strategy years advance and 3rd parties just try to play catch-up, which mean they always are step behind. Look at RRR, it's success wasn't based on it being a party game, it's success was because it was released at the same time with Nintendos own similar releases. Now when you look at some 3rd party games, such as the two Resident Evil games, although they are from popular franchise, other is a two-year old port and the other is a spinoff, both still have shelf space at retail and both are still selling. 3rd parties build their own market on Wii, by releasing games in the genre they like and infiltrating the market Nintendo has generated with its own high profile releases. There wasn't much space for competition in platformers when SMG came out, but releasing a platformer today, would lead to good sales, since people who wanted SMG 6 months ago, are in need for a new platformer. Basically how it's going to happen this on is, that when Nintendo releases a big game in genre X, 3rd parties follow with a game in the same genre with a 6 months to a year delay. Each of them are not going to top Nintendo, but they make a lot of high selling games. If they would want to top Nintendo, they would need to be a step ahead of them (like Capcom was). When you look at the number of shooters Wii has, expect CoD5 to be a first week million seller on Wii.

 

So do you mean that third parties will announce more AAA games for the Wii later this year till 2009? So The Conduit and Madworld was only the beginnning for third party developers/publishers? If thats that, then theres new games I look forward to this year than first party titles. Do you mean theres more third party title that didnt announced yet that will release half of this year till 2009?

 

yushire said: OK, now I get it. To sum it up there are no downmarketing in Ninty's part, only Ninty downstream their core market, which is a loyal fan of Ninty to introduced their new control schemes, and the non gamer follow suit. Then theres bridge games, proven with SSBB and Mario Galaxy, to introduced the new non gamer in the world of video games. So as Mario Kart Wii, which also bridge games for non gamers to enjoy driving games. Then theres upstreaming not to upstream the downmarket, since there really no downmarket but to upstream the non gamer crowd in gaming. So there are 2 types of market Ninty is catering to, the non gamer which Ninty wants to cater to and their core gamer which is Ninty's loyal fans. So casual gamers and core gamers was really just a moot, theres no casual gamer, only non gamer which first introduced in gaming with Wii Sports and Wii Fit and the core gamers, which is Ninty's loyal fan. Then theres 2 upmarkets, one is the HD consoles one and one is loyal Ninty fans one, the one HD consoles one isnt Ninty's target but the non gamer crowd and the loyal Ninty's crowd, so with these 2 markets Ninty will make a new market by combining these two markets. OOH I see, I see thanks for clarification.

Yes.

Soon the market is so huge that they simply cannot be given second rate games anymore.

Third parties face destruction if they are not full on the NIntendo bandwagon and even then they may not be safe.Now they are faced with a dilemma.When then big core games on the Wii now start to finally pull the upmarket from the HD consoles just like the DS did then we will see real panic.

This is real fear.

This is why I don't give a damn when other third parties diss the Wii.I just laugh.

Heck, here's one that no one believes and will surely tell me that I'm talking crap. Ready?

Nintendo has the best online interface.Yes they do.Lack of content is the only thing now and don't worry it is fast coming.

Something big happened the other day with respect to this with Sony immediately responding that they were focusing on profits at the expense of marketshare while they focus on their multimedia content.Sony moved further upmarket.

Nintendo is reviving a plan that they set in motion since the late 80's but was stopped by sony before they were about to pull it off.I'll say this,Nintendo says that they mainly focus on games.They never said "only" on games

 

yushire said: bdbdbd said: Bored4life said:   @Yushire: Listen to Louie. The problem with 3rd parties is, that they walk a step behind Nintendo. Nintendo has planned its strategy years advance and 3rd parties just try to play catch-up, which mean they always are step behind. Look at RRR, it's success wasn't based on it being a party game, it's success was because it was released at the same time with Nintendos own similar releases. Now when you look at some 3rd party games, such as the two Resident Evil games, although they are from popular franchise, other is a two-year old port and the other is a spinoff, both still have shelf space at retail and both are still selling. 3rd parties build their own market on Wii, by releasing games in the genre they like and infiltrating the market Nintendo has generated with its own high profile releases. There wasn't much space for competition in platformers when SMG came out, but releasing a platformer today, would lead to good sales, since people who wanted SMG 6 months ago, are in need for a new platformer. Basically how it's going to happen this on is, that when Nintendo releases a big game in genre X, 3rd parties follow with a game in the same genre with a 6 months to a year delay. Each of them are not going to top Nintendo, but they make a lot of high selling games. If they would want to top Nintendo, they would need to be a step ahead of them (like Capcom was). When you look at the number of shooters Wii has, expect CoD5 to be a first week million seller on Wii.   So do you mean that third parties will announce more AAA games for the Wii later this year till 2009? So The Conduit and Madworld was only the beginnning for third party developers/publishers? If thats that, then theres new games I look forward to this year than first party titles. Do you mean theres more third party title that didnt announced yet that will release half of this year till 2009?

Yeah, exactly that.

I know of an Sports game, a Jump ´n´ Run and an Action based game currently in developement for "a Nintendo console". I can´t tell you which games those are, though because my source doesn´t want to talk about it already but I assume at least two of them are Wii games. (Madworld could´ve been the Action title, I´m not sure about that.)

 

Bored4life said: yushire said: OK, now I get it. To sum it up there are no downmarketing in Ninty's part, only Ninty downstream their core market, which is a loyal fan of Ninty to introduced their new control schemes, and the non gamer follow suit. Then theres bridge games, proven with SSBB and Mario Galaxy, to introduced the new non gamer in the world of video games. So as Mario Kart Wii, which also bridge games for non gamers to enjoy driving games. Then theres upstreaming not to upstream the downmarket, since there really no downmarket but to upstream the non gamer crowd in gaming. So there are 2 types of market Ninty is catering to, the non gamer which Ninty wants to cater to and their core gamer which is Ninty's loyal fans. So casual gamers and core gamers was really just a moot, theres no casual gamer, only non gamer which first introduced in gaming with Wii Sports and Wii Fit and the core gamers, which is Ninty's loyal fan. Then theres 2 upmarkets, one is the HD consoles one and one is loyal Ninty fans one, the one HD consoles one isnt Ninty's target but the non gamer crowd and the loyal Ninty's crowd, so with these 2 markets Ninty will make a new market by combining these two markets. OOH I see, I see thanks for clarification. Yes. Soon the market is so huge that they simply cannot be given second rate games anymore. Third parties face destruction if they are not full on the NIntendo bandwagon and even then they may not be safe.Now they are faced with a dilemma.When then big core games on the Wii now start to finally pull the upmarket from the HD consoles just like the DS did then we will see real panic. This is real fear. This is why I don't give a damn when other third parties diss the Wii.I just laugh. Heck, here's one that no one believes and will surely tell me that I'm talking crap. Ready? Nintendo has the best online interface.Yes they do.Lack of content is the only thing now and don't worry it is fast coming. Something big happened the other day with respect to this with Sony immediately responding that they were focusing on profits at the expense of marketshare while they focus on their multimedia content.Sony moved further upmarket. Nintendo is reviving a plan that they set in motion since the late 80's but was stopped by sony before they were about to pull it off.I'll say this,Nintendo says that they mainly focus on games.They never said "only" on games

 

So the third parties that makes casual crap on the Wii while theyre making AAA titles in HD consoles like Ubi and Konami are doomed then RIGHT?

 

yushire said: Bored4life said: yushire said: OK, now I get it. To sum it up there are no downmarketing in Ninty's part, only Ninty downstream their core market, which is a loyal fan of Ninty to introduced their new control schemes, and the non gamer follow suit. Then theres bridge games, proven with SSBB and Mario Galaxy, to introduced the new non gamer in the world of video games. So as Mario Kart Wii, which also bridge games for non gamers to enjoy driving games. Then theres upstreaming not to upstream the downmarket, since there really no downmarket but to upstream the non gamer crowd in gaming. So there are 2 types of market Ninty is catering to, the non gamer which Ninty wants to cater to and their core gamer which is Ninty's loyal fans. So casual gamers and core gamers was really just a moot, theres no casual gamer, only non gamer which first introduced in gaming with Wii Sports and Wii Fit and the core gamers, which is Ninty's loyal fan. Then theres 2 upmarkets, one is the HD consoles one and one is loyal Ninty fans one, the one HD consoles one isnt Ninty's target but the non gamer crowd and the loyal Ninty's crowd, so with these 2 markets Ninty will make a new market by combining these two markets. OOH I see, I see thanks for clarification. Yes. Soon the market is so huge that they simply cannot be given second rate games anymore. Third parties face destruction if they are not full on the NIntendo bandwagon and even then they may not be safe.Now they are faced with a dilemma.When then big core games on the Wii now start to finally pull the upmarket from the HD consoles just like the DS did then we will see real panic. This is real fear. This is why I don't give a damn when other third parties diss the Wii.I just laugh. Heck, here's one that no one believes and will surely tell me that I'm talking crap. Ready? Nintendo has the best online interface.Yes they do.Lack of content is the only thing now and don't worry it is fast coming. Something big happened the other day with respect to this with Sony immediately responding that they were focusing on profits at the expense of marketshare while they focus on their multimedia content.Sony moved further upmarket. Nintendo is reviving a plan that they set in motion since the late 80's but was stopped by sony before they were about to pull it off.I'll say this,Nintendo says that they mainly focus on games.They never said "only" on games     So the third parties that makes casual crap on the Wii while theyre making AAA titles in HD consoles like Ubi and Konami are doomed then RIGHT?

 Not exactly. Ubisoft is aware of that issue, they don´t put so much effort into HD games anymore. Guess why Haze didn´t live up to expectations: They didn´t give them enough developement time on this one, the same goes for Lair: Factor 5 didn´t get Lair done with the budget they calculated for the game and the game turned out bad. Now Factor 5 is working on a Wii exclusive. The same will probably happen to Ubisoft.

Third parties did shift their resources already, you just couldn´t see it already.  

yushire said: OK, now I get it. To sum it up there are no downmarketing in Ninty's part, only Ninty downstream their core market, which is a loyal fan of Ninty to introduced their new control schemes, and the non gamer follow suit. Then theres bridge games, proven with SSBB and Mario Galaxy, to introduced the new non gamer in the world of video games. So as Mario Kart Wii, which also bridge games for non gamers to enjoy driving games. Then theres upstreaming not to upstream the downmarket, since there really no downmarket but to upstream the non gamer crowd in gaming. So there are 2 types of market Ninty is catering to, the non gamer which Ninty wants to cater to and their core gamer which is Ninty's loyal fans. So casual gamers and core gamers was really just a moot, theres no casual gamer, only non gamer which first introduced in gaming with Wii Sports and Wii Fit and the core gamers, which is Ninty's loyal fan. Then theres 2 upmarkets, one is the HD consoles one and one is loyal Ninty fans one, the one HD consoles one isnt Ninty's target but the non gamer crowd and the loyal Ninty's crowd, so with these 2 markets Ninty will make a new market by combining these two markets. OOH I see, I see thanks for clarification.

Not quite, since it didn't take into account the last generations existing gamerbase on non-Nintendo platforms.

3rd parties also is a part of Nintendos plans. Eventually the last generation hits end up on Wii. For example the Resident Evil games and the CoD5. Monster Hunter, Bully, Manhunt...



I can't say about 3rd parties launch schedules, but you need to take into account, that they still are in the middle of their PS360 projects, which needs to be finished. 3rd parties are just slowly starting to move for the Wii and there are not many unannounced 3rd party games that will hit this year. Yet unannounced 3rd party games that hit the Wii this year, are propably WiiWare titles.



@Bored: You didn't take the two Resident Evil games into account when you mentioned MP3. Capcom definately seems to have an idea how Nintendo is moving with its strategy and how to take benefit. RE4 port came just in time to cut the sales of MP3 at launch and REUC cut its christmas market. And making a move in advance did really pay off.

LOL@Rol.

@Louie:

Ubisoft hates Nintendo(not the Wii customers) and are pulling resources due to necessity and not love.This is clear.That's why I even put the "Yes really" next to their name.One thing though is that they are not elitists like most of the other western devs.They are just very sour at how much they've had to reorganize within a mere 4 year period.Nintendo has really screwed up a lot of people.