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Forums - Nintendo - The flight of third parties, my take on the Wii and its shovelwares

@HappySquirrel------> Well those are from japanese developers after all, after the gaming armageddon(Dont correct me on this, Im just a fan of Sean Malstrom thats all :P) with Wii Fit and SSBB hits Japan, theres nothing japanese developers/publishers can do but to develop a game for the Wii.

But what about western developers? Anything interesting? Please dont tell me about de blob and deadly creatures since its a niche title unlike Saint's row 2, darksiders and Frontlines



end of core gaming days prediction:

 

E3 2006-The beginning of the end. Wii introduced

 

E3 2008- Armageddon. Wii motion plus introduced. Wii Music. Reggie says Animal crossing was a core game. Massive disappointment. many Wii core gamers selling their Wii.

 

E3 2010- Tape runs out

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/ICG_Tape_runs_out.jpg

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Kyros said:
We're begining to see the second stage now, ... as a result you will see more companies react by producing more "Core" gamer games along side their "Blue-Ocean" games.


Just out of interest where do you see this beginning? Any concrete signs like game announcements?

Beyond MadWorld, games like Skate It and Madden from EA have shown an interesting take which is far more related to a more indepth "core" gameplay experience than the "casual" approach they have been using with these series in the past:

Skate It: http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/856185/skate/videos/skateit_wiicontrols_050808.html

Madden: http://wii.ign.com/dor/objects/14229535/madden-nfl-09/videos/madden_wii_callurshots_051208.html



I think your take is far too pessimistic. The game developers didn’t have anything ready for the Wii at launch because they had been told by virtually all the industry experts that it was doomed to fail. It took a good part of the first year for it to become clear that the system was taking off. Then the 3rd party developers took notice. Unfortunately, believing the myth of the casual gamer and with their top people already committed to projects on the other platforms, their first response was to rush out a bunch of crap. After all, these were casual gamers, they wouldn’t know the difference. As Miyamoto himself said “it would be that a lot of times it seems that when they're putting games out on Nintendo hardware, those games are being developed by their third-string team or their fourth-string team.” He went on to say that this meant they were at a great disadvantage competing with Nintendo software which was always developed by their top people. It turned out that the Wii users, many of them adults and more than most people seem to realize, veteran gamers and ex-gamers, did know the difference and wouldn’t buy crap. They would however buy a good product like Guitar Hero III which did extremely well. Now the developers HAD to get serious or write off half the market. There is significant lead time so this new commitment is only now starting to bear fruit. Some good games are starting to show up and initiatives like EA Sports’ to produce games written for the Wii and really fully realizing the motion controls potential will soon show up. Serious games like Brothers in Arms are being rewritten for the Wii. After results like this month and probably next with Wii Fit, this trickle will become a torrent. That’s because game developers follow the market. And according to most of the reports and interviews in game developers’ trade papers there is no strong dislike of writing for the Wii. The costs are lower and the turn-around is quicker. Many designers prefer working on game play to the rather tedious work of texturing in high resolution and a lot of them are excited about working with a new control system. So don’t worry, good games will be coming. 

Look at it this way. You are operating a game design studio always worried about the mounting cost of development. You are essentially presented with the following choice. Do I reach half the market by designing on one platform that is easier and cheaper work on? Or do I reach the other half where I have to design on two separate platforms that are more difficult and more expensive to design for? Duhhhh



Chadius said:
As a reminder yushire, this same thing happened during the PS1/Saturn/N64 era. Many 3rd party devs had to deal with making their games 3-D when they were used to 2-D. They saw Super Mario 64 and cloned the hub structure ("collect 30 stars to access the next area!") without understanding the underlying nuances. For example, it took them years to make jumping good. Turok 64 was credited for being an FPS with decent jump mechanics(!) Contra and Road Rash tried to go 3D and failed miserably.

Eventually new games arrived like Spyro & Crash Bandicoot. They were new so they could take advantage of 3D platforming without being held down by old ideas.

Anywho, you read Sean Malstrom's "The Birdman Fallacy," yes? Right now we're at the point where 3rd party developers have stopped cloning MINIGAMEZ but haven't figured out what works yet. Patience young grasshopper.

 

Im curious about this one. WHAT?!! 3rd party developers dont know how to make a 3d game before Super Mario 64 came along? Thats odd, so ps1 games copies super mario 64 mechanics?

 



end of core gaming days prediction:

 

E3 2006-The beginning of the end. Wii introduced

 

E3 2008- Armageddon. Wii motion plus introduced. Wii Music. Reggie says Animal crossing was a core game. Massive disappointment. many Wii core gamers selling their Wii.

 

E3 2010- Tape runs out

http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/march2009/ICG_Tape_runs_out.jpg

One thing people fail to realize concerning the Wii is the fact that it is reaching a bigger audience.

And usually the bigger the audience the smaller the amount of money they individually have to spend.

This woudn't be such an issue except now developers are left competing to entice a customer that will buy 4-5 games top a year to buy one of their game. And the issue is that Nintendo releases 3-4 kick ass games minimum a year so the picking left are small for the rest of the developers....(especially as Nintendo game gets much bigger marketing anyway).

That's not the case for every Wii owner, but the bigger its audience becomes the bigger the problem will be as the newcomers to the gaming market won't be buying 6-8 games a year like the more hardcore of us do...

For 3rd parties to develop successfull blockbuster on the Wii one of two things need to happen

- Nintendo needs to slow down the release of their big blog busters to leave room for the others.

- Attach rate of Nintendo-made game need to dip, leaving room for others games..

 

That's not the case on the 360 or the PS3, there aren't 3-4 First party titles that totally dominate every year ( at most you have 1-2).



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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Happy Squirrel hit the nail on the head.

As he touches on, the problem was/is an institutional one: after all these publishers (and therefore developers, who follow where the money goes) invested very heavily in the idea of an HD future, pouring capital into technology, artists and programmers and then selling that to their shareholders as a cost of doing business, it becomes very difficult to have to turn around and admit that you've now sunk stunning amounts of cash into assets that are much less valuable than they were even a year ago (this isn't to say there isn't money in HD games, it's simply that there is the potential to make far more money with much less risk in the camp that, at best, they were benignly ignoring). 

 

A case in point is Lost Colonies, a game that, by all counts, cost some 50 million after development and marketing were all said and done (I am assuming the cost of developing the engine was part of the price tag for the sake of this example). With that sort of expenditure, Capcom needs to get a *ton* of mileage out of that technology and if it isn't very scaleable it's going to be hard to  recoup that investment when your assumptions going in were that you'd end up with 100 million (a number I'm throwing out for the sake of argument--it could be much higher or lower) HD consoles. Mind you, I'm not picking on Capcom, I'm just using them as one example of how things can go awry when the future you invested in turns out to be a mirage.

 

This is part of the reason you see so many publishers and developers lashing out at the Wii during "We Hate Wii" month: they invested so much time, money, effort, sweat, blood, virgins, etc. into a paradigm that is rapidly eroding that you're witnessing the real-time death throes of a lot of credibility and a lot of out-sized egos. When the smoke clears, though, most everyone is going to end up developing titles for Wii out of neccesity, regardless of whether any of them truly like or believe in it.

 

This, incidentally, also explains why a lot of professional gaming critics and fanboys for MS and Sony do the same: they staked their reps on the Wii being a trainwreck or, at best, a novelty that would quickly be relegated to an irrelevant third place, a suitable position for what they perceived to be "kiddie" or a "toy" or a "gimmick" (how soon they forget the lessons of the DS). Now that it's hammering the competition they're extracting every pound of flesh they can for being made to look foolish--making hay while the sun shines, in a manner of speaking.

 

Anyway, you needn't worry: there will be tons of software for the Wii, including 'real' games that will slowly shift the focus away from 'casual' titles and shovelware. 




Yushire, the ps2 and ds are both examples of consoles that had nothing in there first year or two. It takes time for the winner to get games.



Super Mario 64 was so legendary at the time.

Basically every platformer after SM64 superficially copied it. Most platformers dropped you off in a hub, unlocked the first world and said "get 6 (completiion items) to unlock the next world." Just like SM64. The big difference, of course, is that SM64 did it already.

For more fun, let's rewind to the NES era. Super Mario Brothers spawned a million platformer clones where you ran from left to right, jumped over pits, dealt with enemies in some way and cleared multiple stages. Some of them had variants, like giving you a melee attack or a gun or a strict timer, but they were all following SMB's blueprint. Sega eventually broke out of that by making a platformer that was fast and had "attitude." Thus Sonic the Hedgehog.

Look at the XBox & XBox 360. Lots and lots and lots of FPS clones. Most of them with "take cover to regain shield" mechanics. Just like Halo. Sure there are variants (2-player online coop, different weapons, different plots) but they are following Halo's blueprint to the letter. Has a break-through FPS emerged yet? I don't really know (a little help from FPS nuts out there?)

So when the Wii came out, what did developers see? Wii Sports (OMG TECH DEMO?) Rayman Raving Rabbids (OMG MINIGAMEZ!) and promptly shoved waggle-driven tech demos onto the Wii. Of course, they didn't notice how Nintendo used its A teams to program Wii Sports or how subtle the controls are in RRR. But they'll figure it out soon.



There is no such thing as a console war. This is the first step to game design.

Right now the Wii has 5 games with attach rate over 20%, there will be 7 soon ( Mario kart and Wii Fit will be there in a few weeks). All are Nintendo made

It does not leave a lot of money ( and time) in the average customer pocket to buy and play others games..

As long as Nintendo made games are MUST-BUY  and there are so many of them, the problem will remain... 

 



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

3rd party is not a single team though.

Instead of Nintendo owning (arbitrary!) 90% of Wii software sales, MS + EA + Activision own (arbitrary!) 90% of XBox 360 sales.

It's the same situation for the remaining 3rd party devs. I'm not sure what makes it so much worse for the Wii.



There is no such thing as a console war. This is the first step to game design.