imarc said: Another great quote: http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/52697 "Xbox 360 has the largest global install base of any current gen. high definition gaming console, Wii excluded," the company clarified when asked how Xbox 360 could lead worldwide with 19 million when the Wii has sold 24.45 million.

I read that as, "we're winning if you don't count the guys who are actually winning".  The sheer amount of spin in that one sentence makes me dizzy...

What is this? "360 hilarious spinning season"? It's called 360 alright, you don't have to "spin" it that much for people to get the pun. First Aaron Greenberg with his brilliant comments (see my sig) now this. The first year and even the second year their console was available, the old PS2 was selling millions more , lol.

blykmik said: @bluesinG I understand your point, but to your logic I can then claim that even your definition of spin is "spin". There are always different frames of reference when people look at facts. Who determines which is the correct frame of reference that is not "spin"? So everything ever said is spin... and we'd be going in circles for a long time. ;) I'd be more inclined to call something spin when it CHANGES the frames of reference to compare the same things using DIFFERENT criteria for each. For instance, Microsoft saying they beat the Wii to 10 million sales in the US. Yes, that it is a fact. But they are talking about the "speed" at which they hit 10 million, yet they are using different time frames to judge that speed. 2.5 year time frame for the 360 and a 1.5 year time frame for the Wii. That is incongruent to start. That is using DIFFERENT criteria to judge sales speed. That is true spin. With regards to Microsoft's press releases about GTAIV selling better on the 360, I used the same frame of reference for both (LTD installed base). Microsoft again ignores the idea of judging from an even playing field and touts the raw numbers. In your definition, both Microsoft's statement of selling better on the 360 and my calibration against install bases are both spin. You're entitled to that... ...but what do you really believe is real? What is true? With a 2.5 to 1 console advantage in the Americas, all things being equal, shouldn't the GTAIV sales ratio be 2.5 to 1 also? Were you one that believed PlayStation brand loyalty meant something here? Did you believe the episodic content was going to give the 360 the boost? Why is the sales ratio only at 1.67 to 1? I guess it's just gotta get spun one way or the other. But I would imagine that people not invested at all in this "war", when given all the facts, would have a very simple time making their judgments about those numbers. ...as for you last generation sales comparisons, yes... Nice spin. You compared first-run exclusive release sales on a monster install base, to aged re-releases on platform with a paltry install base. You couldn't get the "frames of reference" any different there.

I don't think there's anything for us to argue about here, as long as you accept my definition of "spin" as intentionally situating a set of facts within a positive or negative frame of reference. (Note that this definition does not assume that there is necessarily a "correct" frame of reference--only that the presenter tries to impose a particular frame.)

All I did was articulate this definition to show that you spun the GTA IV numbers, as did Microsoft. If someone wanted to present the GTA numbers without spin, they could simply say something like this: So far, GTA IV for the XBox360 has sold 4.37 million copies, and GTA IV for the PS3 has sold 3.29 million copies.

As for your question about my personal frame of reference, I do not own or plan to own an XBox360 or a PS3. I'm content with my Wii and PC. As a bystander to the Sony-Microsoft "war," I can see why both Microsoft and Sony fans might be pleased with the GTA IV numbers, and also why they both might be disappointed with them.

I see this as some kind of marathon conversation now:

"It's a fine day to be running so much is for sure... this is a full marathon, 42+ Km to go. We are here at the 10 KM mark and hot on MS' heels is Nintendo... but MS manages to pinch the 10 KM by a hair... that was excillerating, now let's see the other 32 KM..."

(Sorry I didn't feel like converting to miles - 1 mile = roughly 1.6 KM...)

it lunched 1year before wii and 360 so its not a winnig

Analysts Unmoved By 360's 10 mln US Milestone

Analysts are relatively unmoved by Microsoft's 10 million-unit Xbox 360 milestone, with one calling the company's recent announcement "a last-chance chest-pounding moment."

On Wednesday, Microsoft announced that Xbox 360 has sold over 10 million units in the U.S. SVP of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business Don Mattrick stated, "History has shown us that the first company to reach 10 million in console sales wins the generation battle."

But analysts quizzed by Next-Gen question the logic behind the "first to 10 million wins" idea.

Mike Hickey with Janco Partners says that he sees "little significance" in Microsoft's announcement, calling it little more than "a corporate catalyst for a press statement and a last-chance chest-pounding moment."

He added, "...We do not expect Sony or Nintendo will announce defeat this week, in the drama wake caused from Xbox 360 domestic units sales crossing an arbitrary line in the sand.

"It’s unclear to us if Microsoft considers the Wii console from Nintendo to be a competitive product, but we expect the Wii’s installed base will likely eclipse the Xbox 360’s installed base in CY08, and eventually win the console war by a wide margin."

Hickey said that he has "no doubt" that if supply for the year-younger (and less expensive) Wii were able to meet continuing high demand, Nintendo's console would have beat Xbox 360 to the 10 million mark in the U.S.

So far, Wii has sold around 8.8 million in the U.S. despite tight supply.

Arvind Bhatia with Stern Agee argues that the console battle is far from over. "Everyone knows 360 has the lead over PlayStation 3. However, declaring victory this early in the cycle is premature," he says. "Sony is likely to catch up given its relative strength in Europe and Japan. Also, Blu-ray provides Sony with an edge."

Worldwide, PS3, which like Wii also launched a year after Xbox 360, sold around 9.24 million units in its last fiscal year, and about 12.85 million total. Launched in November 2005, Xbox 360 has sold 19 million worldwide.

"I guess getting to 10 million units first is one of the benefits of launching a year before your competition," says Colin Sebastian with Lazard Capital Markets. But like other analysts, he also brought up the Wii factor. "Based on unit sell-through trends, it would appear that the Wii is positioned to surpass the 360 installed base down the road. Regardless of market share, in this cycle we see the potential for three healthy console platforms, unlike the PS2 dominance last time around."

Michael Pachter with Wedbush Morgan Securities simply called Microsoft's announcement "spin," adding, "Nintendo will pass them this month."

So the fact that Wii would be the first to 11, 12, 13, 14, etc... million makes no difference to MS?

I used to run track and the first to the 10 meter marker didn't mean jack.

It could have just reached 10 million US only, and 1.7 million accross all of the americas, remember that the US model is the one sold in all of the americas!

blykmik said: Is it me, or is this starting to seem desperate? There's this and then the crowing about 60% of GTAIV sales when they have 70% of the consoles out there?

The analysts are saying that this is Microsoft's last opportunity to pound its fist on its chest and say, "hey, we're ahead."  Patcher even went so far as to say that Nintendo will surpass Microsoft in the US this month.

The thing is, Microsoft will always find something to brag about when there is nothing.  This month, when the Wii passes Microsoft here in the US, Microsoft will suddenly say, "we're not competing with the Wii, we only count the PS3.  And we're only interested in talking about US sales."

The 'silly logic' MS is using of, "the first to 10 million has always won" is the reason they rushed the 360 to the market.  They used to say, "the first to launch has always won." 

Kenology said: Michael Pachter with Wedbush Morgan Securities simply called Microsoft's announcement "spin," adding, "Nintendo will pass them this month."

Whoah! My jaw dropped when I read this line. An optimistic Wii prediction from Pachter? Madness!