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Forums - Gaming - Immersion vs. Interaction: conflicting gamer tastes

Interaction leads to immersion when the player's actions maintain the illusion of reality that is largely at the core of a fully immersive experience.

Someone used Wii Boxing as an example, but as someone with real life boxing experience, I have to say that the control scheme for that particular game was extremely frustrating as the program simply does not account for speed and reach (or even basic footwork); two of the most important factors in allowing physical ability (or physical build) to produce a match winning advantage. My actual punching speed meant nothing in Wii Boxing, which became obvious after the first few minutes of play. That was a disappointment since I was really looking forward to a shadow boxing game with a virtual sparring partner. It did not meet my expectations.

As far as creating the illusion of boxing, Wii Boxing failed miserably. Eventually I discovered that "shaking the maracas" was the most effective way to throw punches in that game and hit "pro" status.

If other factors in a game are able to create an illusion realistic enough to make the actions of your on screen character "your" actions, then life like visuals are not essential.

Remote slashes standing in for sword swings are far more satisfying that button presses. NMH added a bit more to the repeated controller shake for a flurry of swings (like Zelda TP) by adding specific directions for finishing blows. Unfortunately, the big arrows on the screen take away from the illusion, but there are limitations to what can currently be done.

Pointing the remote as opposed to using the right analog stick feels more natural and satisfying. Aside from the fact that you're shooting with what feels like a TV remote, it does add an extra degree of immersion.

But realistic visuals are particularly vital in maintaining the illusion when it comes to objects, environments and physical actions we are very familiar with. Fantasy worlds or science fiction worlds are not held to the same standards as say a walk through NYC (GTAIV) since they generally don't exist in the real world, subject to real world physics and visuals. The only thing we have to compare in the sci-fi/fantasy worlds are what we see in film and television.

But driving simulators for example, will feel a lot more immersive the closer the visuals are to the real thing. Having a convincing cockpit 1st person view along with realistic engine and tire screeching sounds accompanied by controller feedback through the rough sections, etc. all help to maintain the illusion of driving a car.

Ultimately, it's any combination of factors that succeed in pulling the gamer into the world created by the developer. As long as that spell of illusion is maintained, any game can succeed in creating an immersive experience, even if the interaction is limited by button presses, key stroke presses, or arm waving motions. I'll go so far as to say that the biggest factor in creating an immersive gaming experience is a solid story line with a good script, well developed characters, set in a believable world, even if that world is a sci-fi or fantasy world.

As long as the player continues to feel his or her actions are shaping the events unfolding throughout the game, that player should be immersed in the game.

But until we start seeing one for one action translation on screen like a holodeck, where your body and any objects you have on your person are the "controller", control schemes alone are not enough to create the same level of immersion.



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Ok, I'm gonna say this right now and easy.

Immersion = GTA4

Why? Well look at what you can/cant do. Now the physics of the cars is realistic... the physics of ALL the cars is realistic... (in an arcade sense) The damage you take, immerses you into the game. You hit a telephone pole, dead center of your car, and guess what? Does the front of your car explode off, in debris.. or do you get a HUGE dent in the front? When you get in a helicopter, and you take off, next to people... who look like real people, like the people you know iRL. Then after 20 seconds, you are flying HIGH over the city, seeing all buildings and detail at all levels, the blur shader does a great job of makeing the buildings look higher quality than they actually are, and also gives a sense of distance. And all of this can happen, with a few explosions... ALL AT THE SAME time. That is immersion. GTA3, by todays standards is not immersive. Another good example, and this is a small-fry game, but PAIN. Everything in that game, can be impacted, broke, moved, damaged, or something. Now I'm not even gonna go into the graphics, but to control that many physics items at once, is kinda, power consuming. Also, Some-one compared something to Crysis. I am a big PC gamer, and I love FPS. Crysis... SUCKS on the immersion factor. As in, it does NOT draw me in. You want immersion, you go buy a 360 and Bioshock, or just buy Bioshock for your computer. THAT game is AMAZING. One of the best in years.

Zelda, does a good job. Zelda is the only game that stands out on the Wii.

(there are many games on PC/360/PS3 that do a VERY good job of immersion, but I'm not going to list all the good ones, and bad ones... too lazy tonight)

 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!

swyggi said:

I believe that these are the two concepts that separate the 360 and PS3 from the Wii and contribute to the overall conflict between the two types of gaming. 

 

It's clear that Nintendo chose Interaction for this generation and Sony and MS chose Immersion.  Anybody can pick up and play the Wii while interacting with what is happening in the game.  However, interaction takes away from immersion, or the ability to subconsciously become a part of a game world without having to think about what you are doing like pressing a button. 

Traditional gamers are more fond of games that take them away from reality and put them into another world.  The Wii makes it difficult to be immersed due to the controls themselves and the constant awareness of reacting to the gameplay by moving.  When you're moving your heart will beat faster than if you didn't do anything obviously giving you awareness of the situation.    

 

 One of the other major differences between Immersion and Interaction is play time. When a player is immersed in a game, the play time will be much higher due to the player being "lost" in the game. 

 

This is not to say that you can't be immersed while interacting with a game.  But if the interaction wasn't there, you'd more likely be more immersed into the game itself.  Conflicting joy can happen in interaction, sometimes a gamer won't care for the controls and just care about the game, other times the gamer likes a combination of both.  It differs for people.  

 

Interaction provides a sense of uniqueness to a game.  To do something on the outside of a game and effect the inside of a game usually induces a good feeling of joy and accomplishment.  The one problem with this is that if the game that is being played with these controls is not up to snuff in terms of the actual game itself according to the gamers tastes, the controls become almost useless  to give off a radiant joy of accomplishment.  This is where the line is drawn from someone who prefers the Wii and someone who prefers either the PS3 or 360.   

 

 

thoughts?       

 

 

 


 For me the new method of interaction is actually what CREATES immersion.  I feel more immersed in a tennis game when I'm swinging my remote than when I'm pressing a button.  Graphics don't affect my immersion level.  I actually have the ability to use what they call "willing suspension of disbelief."  It's what sucks you into a movie or a book or a video game.  It's been around since the beginning of time.  Hell, when they first showed The Great Train Robbery in theaters in 1903, people ran out screaming when a robber pointed a gun at the camera becuase IT WAS SO FUCKING REAL.  This was before color or even sound.  Pixels don't create immersion.



The Ghost of RubangB said:

For me the new method of interaction is actually what CREATES immersion. I feel more immersed in a tennis game when I'm swinging my remote than when I'm pressing a button.


 I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement.  However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons. 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!

Kwaad said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

For me the new method of interaction is actually what CREATES immersion. I feel more immersed in a tennis game when I'm swinging my remote than when I'm pressing a button.


I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement. However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons.


Very interesting... it sounds like you want to play tennis. Seriously if you want to play 1:1 pick up a tennis raquet and cut out the middle man. For video games 1:1 isn't necessary right now. It's not VR, motion sensors simply expand the possibility of interaction. I've heard you make this 1:1 argument before but it's bunkum. I'll only assume you're talking about Wii Sports Tennis. If you are, this game was designed to be extremely accessible and has extremely simplified and restrictive controls. In Wii Sports Tennis you have no control over your players court position, this is done through AI. It's true you can waggle the Wiimote around randomly and hit the ball often. This is a simply designed game. Button mashing has always existed in video games, random waggling equates to this in said Tennis game.

Seriously though, go outside and play tennis. I'd like to see some more thought put into your posts in the future.



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GlingGling said:
Kwaad said:

I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement. However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons.


Very interesting... it sounds like you want to play tennis. Seriously if you want to play 1:1 pick up a tennis raquet and cut out the middle man. For video games 1:1 isn't necessary right now. It's not VR, motion sensors simply expand the possibility of interaction. I've heard you make this 1:1 argument before but it's bunkum. I'll only assume you're talking about Wii Sports Tennis. If you are, this game was designed to be extremely accessible and has extremely simplified and restrictive controls. In Wii Sports Tennis you have no control over your players court position, this is done through AI. It's true you can waggle the Wiimote around randomly and hit the ball often. This is a simply designed game. Button mashing has always existed in video games, random waggling equates to this in said Tennis game.

Seriously though, go outside and play tennis. I'd like to see some more thought put into your posts in the future.


 Actually no, I am not waggling around the Wiimote randomly to win, it's not luck, it's not chance. It's skill. The base problem is, the way the Wiimote works, and the way the accelerometers in it work. Due to that, the software has to take shortcuts, and 90% of the  time, that means useing tha accelerometer as a simple 'button'. Now, if you wanted to get into some serious detail on teh' Wii you could factor in tilt/acceleration and thus, becuase of that the game could almost do a 1:1 interpetation. However the problem is, the accelerometer. It's not there yet. Now I'm not bashing the Wii. I hate the PS3's 'Six Axis' BS, and I hat ANYTHING that uses the accelerometer. I dont like jerking my hands to use as just, another button. I would like to play tennis, but the nearest tennis court to me is almost an hour away. I am actually not bashing the Wii on that comment, I am just saying, the new 'interaction' isnt always the best.

I think the Wii is fun, and I'm actually starting to pick up a few games for my Wii. However it still dosent get used that much, but still, my point is, it's not gathering dust anymore. (I'm picking up like 3 games)

However, I dont think the Wii can hold a finger to the PS3/360 in immersion. Infact, I dont think the PC can hold a finger to the PS3/360... Actually it 'can' but for some reason, it dont.

Wii Boxing, is the one that random waggling will win you games. ;)

The Wii-mote sensors are too easily manuplated, and dont carry the precision (accelerometer) that it should, for it to be incorperated in a main-stream game.

It's like trying to fly a helicopter, with a old-school cheap-o, flight stick. The 'position' jumps around so much, that it is almost impossible to fly becuase of the 'random' factor. The Wiimote, unfortuinatly has that. Just as the Six-Axis does too. I'm hopeing the next-gen motion sensing devices fix those problems.

Just as a personal note, as I dont say this often.

I waited in line for 10-14 for my Wii. I had VERY *VERY* high expectations out of it.

I didnt wait in line for the PS3. Infact, I didnt even get one right off. I got one with my x-mas money, when I saw one sitting on the shelf. I'm not anti-nintendo. I just hate the Wiimote. 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!

Kwaad said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

For me the new method of interaction is actually what CREATES immersion. I feel more immersed in a tennis game when I'm swinging my remote than when I'm pressing a button.


 I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement.  However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons. 


My skill level on Wii Sports tennis is almost off my TV.  It's all skill.  I'm never defeated, deepthroating or not.

I'd like to see you use your mouth and beat a computer at skill level 2300!



The Ghost of RubangB said:
Kwaad said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:

For me the new method of interaction is actually what CREATES immersion. I feel more immersed in a tennis game when I'm swinging my remote than when I'm pressing a button.


I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement. However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons.


My skill level on Wii Sports tennis is almost off my TV. It's all skill. I'm never defeated, deepthroating or not.

I'd like to see you use your mouth and beat a computer at skill level 2300!


 That's the max difficulty right? My wife is asleep,in the room with the Wii, and I dot wanna wake her.

Becuase I did it *once*. My jaw was KILLING me. But damn, I almost died laughing after I won.

But no, Wii sports Tennis, is all skill. To win a game, it's ALL skill. I havent played it in over a year, but I think I beat the max difficulty 2/3 times, with my hands. But then agian, it isnt quite fair either tho... They move light lightning. 



PSN ID: Kwaad


I fly this flag in victory!

Wii Boxing is skill, too. Flailing your arms won't get you a 2400+ rating.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

Kwaad said:
GlingGling said:
Kwaad said:

I agree 100. However when swinging your remote has no more detail/interaction in the game, than a single button press and a slight analog movement. I see no more, if not less immersion. When I would play a 'dream' tennis game, I would hold the wiimote in my hand, and have 1:1 movement. However the way it is, I can hold the Wiimote in my mouth, and beat the hardest level computer, and any of my friends I have played with in the past.

Now how immersive is it, when the person next to you, is kicking your ass, when you are 'trying' to play tennis. and their... deep throating a wii-mote... and winning?!?!?!

Untill 1:1 comes, I will personally enjoy my dual analog sticks, with buttons.


Very interesting... it sounds like you want to play tennis. Seriously if you want to play 1:1 pick up a tennis raquet and cut out the middle man. For video games 1:1 isn't necessary right now. It's not VR, motion sensors simply expand the possibility of interaction. I've heard you make this 1:1 argument before but it's bunkum. I'll only assume you're talking about Wii Sports Tennis. If you are, this game was designed to be extremely accessible and has extremely simplified and restrictive controls. In Wii Sports Tennis you have no control over your players court position, this is done through AI. It's true you can waggle the Wiimote around randomly and hit the ball often. This is a simply designed game. Button mashing has always existed in video games, random waggling equates to this in said Tennis game.

Seriously though, go outside and play tennis. I'd like to see some more thought put into your posts in the future.


Actually no, I am not waggling around the Wiimote randomly to win, it's not luck, it's not chance. It's skill. The base problem is, the way the Wiimote works, and the way the accelerometers in it work. Due to that, the software has to take shortcuts, and 90% of the time, that means useing tha accelerometer as a simple 'button'. Now, if you wanted to get into some serious detail on teh' Wii you could factor in tilt/acceleration and thus, becuase of that the game could almost do a 1:1 interpetation. However the problem is, the accelerometer. It's not there yet. Now I'm not bashing the Wii. I hate the PS3's 'Six Axis' BS, and I hat ANYTHING that uses the accelerometer. I dont like jerking my hands to use as just, another button. I would like to play tennis, but the nearest tennis court to me is almost an hour away. I am actually not bashing the Wii on that comment, I am just saying, the new 'interaction' isnt always the best.

I think the Wii is fun, and I'm actually starting to pick up a few games for my Wii. However it still dosent get used that much, but still, my point is, it's not gathering dust anymore. (I'm picking up like 3 games)

However, I dont think the Wii can hold a finger to the PS3/360 in immersion. Infact, I dont think the PC can hold a finger to the PS3/360... Actually it 'can' but for some reason, it dont.

Wii Boxing, is the one that random waggling will win you games. ;)

The Wii-mote sensors are too easily manuplated, and dont carry the precision (accelerometer) that it should, for it to be incorperated in a main-stream game.

It's like trying to fly a helicopter, with a old-school cheap-o, flight stick. The 'position' jumps around so much, that it is almost impossible to fly becuase of the 'random' factor. The Wiimote, unfortuinatly has that. Just as the Six-Axis does too. I'm hopeing the next-gen motion sensing devices fix those problems.

Just as a personal note, as I dont say this often.

I waited in line for 10-14 for my Wii. I had VERY *VERY* high expectations out of it.

I didnt wait in line for the PS3. Infact, I didnt even get one right off. I got one with my x-mas money, when I saw one sitting on the shelf. I'm not anti-nintendo. I just hate the Wiimote.


Well constructed post. I think many people had extremely high expectations for the Wiimote. I can only say people shouldn't have. Accelerometers and IR are simply nice options to have. I don't think the potential of the technology has been realized yet, though.