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Forums - Gaming - Immersion vs. Interaction: conflicting gamer tastes

FJ-Warez said:
Million said:
 


I don't even think your reading my post's properly. I said graphics "contribute" to immersivness I didn't say graphical abiliity definesthe level of immersivness. But crappy graphics deprive the the immersivness of the game because or eyes are starting to adjust to HD level graphics.

There are many factors which affect immersivness.

Audio

Voice Acting

Graphics ( A major factor)

Level of Detail

Story Line

Gameplay

User involvment

 

Wii Sports is an interactive game !!! Interactivity contributes to immersion but it also doesn't define the level of immersion in a game. The more interactive a game is the less immersive it can be , interactivity requires concious thought , concious thought make you feel more external to the game.

GTA has similar levels of interaction to the average game , like I said before , the believability of the GTA world , the enviroments ,storyline , gameplay , audio , graphics , level of detail are all contributing factors.


1st, your post start to make more sense now, but you haven't answer my question... and many of "your factors"doesn't appear until this post...

Second, I'm sorry but any game need conscious thought, if not you are just watching a movie, or you are not alive, no gamer can go trought any game withouth conscoius thought of his actions...

There you go, with your last sentence, the immersion of the game is no related to the graphics alone, by your stament any game with the same quality in the graphics department with good story line and good gameplay can be as immersive as GTA...


I assumed you already know that these where factors which contributed to immersivness , the reason  I didn't state most of them was because the Wii is capable of most of them althought it can't achieve the same level of visual quality as the PS3/360 can because of it's hardware limitations .

 As well know visuals are a significant part of the games immersivness, in comparison to the PS3/360 I believe that Wii games are less  immersive because of this.

 All games require concious thought that true , I agree . But not all games require the same level or the same type of concious thought.

 GTA Controls : Press O , Press X , Press R1 , Press L1 .  This can be done pretty effortlessly , most gamers can effort less press any button on a PS3/ 360 game pad without much thought.

Wii Sports : Swing Left , Swing right , Backhand swing , Twirl Clockwise , Twirl Anti Clockwise. Kepeing in mind your using alot of the muscles in your upper body as opposed to muscles in your hand and wrist , swinging your hand or twirling the wii mote requires more concious thought than pressing "X" or "R1" because of what your body is doing.

"There you go, with your last sentence, the immersion of the game is no related to the graphics alone, by your stament any game with the same quality in the graphics department with good story line and good gameplay can be as immersive as GTA..."

I don't fully understand what you mean by that but based on what I understand of what your saying , Yup. 




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I don' think this debate can be won because it's hugley opinion based.

I think I've done as much as I can , it kinda amazes me that people can find Wii Boxing as immersive as MGS4 or COD4 , but that's the magic of subjectivity.

Good debate though.




Hell even on DS with games like Phoenix Wright I get to interact with with evidence and get immersed with the story/characters since it just pulls you in ..music is also overlooked when pulling someone in a game (as with choice of style) it must fit the the game.

Or if I go back and play FFVI the visuals are 2d sprites and about as dated as you can get if it was done today would use PS3 visuals but the story dialog and music still draws you in and you forget the fact you are looking at sprites.(unless you are one of those bent on just visuals of the latest technology)



Interaction leads to immerssion, but immerssion doesn't necessarily leads to interaction.
People here need to study more. You just can't dissociate such intrinsic concepts.

Reality is beyond of just the eyes can see.

@Million

By the way............... you are undestanding just what you want about the word "immerssion".
Read again the definition you boulded and meditate about what it implies



PSaiki said:
Interaction leads to immerssion, but immerssion doesn't necessarily leads to interaction.
People here need to study more. You just can't dissociate such intrinsic concepts.

Reality is beyond of just the eyes can see.

@Million

By the way............... you are undestanding just what you want about the word "immerssion".
Read again the definition you boulded and meditate about what it implies

 I think there are various routues to immersion actuay , I think I've argued heavily i'm my personal route to immersion and ignored other people's . my bad.

 The PS3/360 tend to meet my needs in terms of the way I feel I'm immersed in a game, i guess that's different for everyone.




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Million said:
I don' think this debate can be won because it's hugley opinion based.

I think I've done as much as I can , it kinda amazes me that people can find Wii Boxing as immersive as MGS4 or COD4 , but that's the magic of subjectivity.

Good debate though.

The motion of your avatar's fists in Wii Boxing is almost exactly analogous to the movement of your own fists. The lines between the player and the avatar are blurred. Perfect immersion would have no distinction between the avatar and the player, and no distinction between the game world and the real world.

Compare to MGS4, where the player twiddles his thumbs and the avatar executes a grapple and cuts an enemy's throat.



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Million said:
 

 GTA Controls : Press O , Press X , Press R1 , Press L1 .  This can be done pretty effortlessly , most gamers can effort less press any button on a PS3/ 360 game pad without much thought.

Wii Sports : Swing Left , Swing right , Backhand swing , Twirl Clockwise , Twirl Anti Clockwise. Kepeing in mind your using alot of the muscles in your upper body as opposed to muscles in your hand and wrist , swinging your hand or twirling the wii mote requires more concious thought than pressing "X" or "R1" because of what your body is doing.


 This is easy, if you are playing a sports game, the most natural thing is to move like you were doing the real deal...

If you are playing a sim game, pushing a bottom and waiting for the action is not natural... in this case the immersion comes from the natural response of the brain to the game... thats why videogames were just reserved to a small amount of population, you needed to translate the action you want to perform to the right combitation of buttons and sticks... (This is why is more natural to play Rockband, guitar hero with pseudo instruments)... this is why immersion through interaction is more deep than visuals...

The Wiimote changed this, not heavily, but is a great start...



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Million, you seem to be very adamant about the idea that if you have to perform a physical action, it will make you think more about what you are doing when compared to pressing a button.

The closest thing I can figure out is that you either don't remember the first time you used a controller, or you are somewhat physically uncoordinated. I'm seriously not trying to be insulting, so just listen to this from my perspective here.

When I'm playing boxing or tennis or bowling, or even baseball and golf, yes, I have to think about what I'm doing, but if I were to ACTUALLY go boxing or bowling or play a game of tennis or golf, I'd have to think about what I was doing the SAME WAY.
The only thing I can get is that you've been playing games long enough to the point that you don't remember the difficulty in learning a control style that is completely different than anything you've used before.

I mean, swinging wiimote = swinging sword. Aiming wiimote = aiming gun. How is it that these actions need to be thought about to the point that they would make you lose immersion? You've been swinging around a tennis racket or a sword for 2 hours, and now you're tired. this breaks immersion because you're tired? it's BECAUSE I'm tired that I feel immersed! I've been swinging a freaking sword around for two hours!
I'M the one doing it I'M the one getting tired, hence I'M the one that is in the game. If I WASN'T tired, THAT would clue me in to the idea that I'm not actually in the game, but instead merely controlling some robotic lifeform in a little box in front of me.



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Grey Acumen said:
Million, you seem to be very adamant about the idea that if you have to perform a physical action, it will make you think more about what you are doing when compared to pressing a button.

The closest thing I can figure out is that you either don't remember the first time you used a controller, or you are somewhat physically uncoordinated. I'm seriously not trying to be insulting, so just listen to this from my perspective here.

When I'm playing boxing or tennis or bowling, or even baseball and golf, yes, I have to think about what I'm doing, but if I were to ACTUALLY go boxing or bowling or play a game of tennis or golf, I'd have to think about what I was doing the SAME WAY.
The only thing I can get is that you've been playing games long enough to the point that you don't remember the difficulty in learning a control style that is completely different than anything you've used before.

I mean, swinging wiimote = swinging sword. Aiming wiimote = aiming gun. How is it that these actions need to be thought about to the point that they would make you lose immersion? You've been swinging around a tennis racket or a sword for 2 hours, and now you're tired. this breaks immersion because you're tired? it's BECAUSE I'm tired that I feel immersed! I've been swinging a freaking sword around for two hours!
I'M the one doing it I'M the one getting tired, hence I'M the one that is in the game. If I WASN'T tired, THAT would clue me in to the idea that I'm not actually in the game, but instead merely controlling some robotic lifeform in a little box in front of me.

Exactly.

@Million: You won't get more immersion in anything that's not real life. By your definition Wii is not immersive at all, that only goes to the HD consoles, well, I can say the same go do the things you do in the game in real life, then you'll get immersion.

This is like the battle between Oot and GTA4, no one will win. I've had much more "immersion" in games like SMW, ALttP, MP3 than in games like Gears of War. It's all about the one whos playing and his preferences. On the other hand wi offers far more interaction than the other consoles.

Interaction means immersion just like grey acumen just said. The more the similitudes the gameplay has with the real actions, the more immerse you will get.



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PSaiki said:
Interaction leads to immerssion, but immerssion doesn't necessarily leads to interaction.
People here need to study more. You just can't dissociate such intrinsic concepts.

Reality is beyond of just the eyes can see.

@Million

By the way............... you are undestanding just what you want about the word "immerssion".
Read again the definition you boulded and meditate about what it implies

That's not entirely true though with Wii games.  The controls are not perfectly responsive in every situation.  Take Wii sports for example: You can punch as fast as you want in boxing, but your Mii won't respond to every punch you let fly. 

Now take MP3 for example:  The grappling move doesn't work flawlessly because there's a slight hesitation that will happen before the motion controls will respond to execute the move.  It happens before you let lose sometimes and other times after you have attached to an enemy to take away their shield.  It works most of the time, but sometimes it won't.  While you can move seamlessly on the outside of the game to your hearts content, the game itself cannot because technology hasn't come that far yet.  MP3's controls are very sharp indeed, but some of the mechanics don't respond as well. 

 Heck, when you're in morph ball mode, you can swing downwards on your wii-mote to make samus jump up. 

 

If the interaction isn't flawless, the immersiveness will seriously be hindered.  You can argue that when you're interacting with the game you are truly immersed into it because for once it's as if you are the person you're controlling.  The problem with this is if the environment isn't up to snuff.  You can be Samus shooting enemies and everything, but what about change during the game?  How do the enemies react?  Interaction can't lead into deep immersiveness unless the atmosphere is almost real enough to taste.  Basically the cause and effect law.

 

If you're performing your grapple move on an enemy to take his/her shield than it should work everytime, just like pressing the B-button every time will execute Link's sword to swing without any possible slow downs.     

 

 



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