May I submit that those games are still on the shleves because people are not buying them, and that there are so few copies of Galaxy because that game is still in demand? And while I'm teasing, may I also point out that the Ptolemies produced some proof that the world was round during their dynasty?

But in all seriousness, you may still be right. It's just that the rest of us don't really see any proof of it, while we do see some proof to the contrary, so we believe the contrary. It might still be wishful thinking on our part, but it's hardly the only lie we have to tell ourselves to get through the day now, is it? 

And we have High School Musical selling over 3/4 million copies too.  Must be a terrific game. 

My worry is legitimate.  People base their opinions on the games they buy.  If they buy a bunch of bad games, their opinions will go down.  If product displays are filled to the brim with bad games, uneducated consumers will buy bad games.

Heh, my sister (age 25) loves Mario Party 8 and hates Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Mario & Sonic (reminds her of the track and field games we played as kids) is her second favorite game on the system followed by My Sims, and her interest in Super Mario Galaxy is mild at best.

The point of this post is that no one has the right, nor the ability, to judge how fun a game is for everyone else. Reviews are opinions. Not only that, but they are opinions from a few dozen people who are the same age (20-30), in the same demographic (hardcore gamers), working in the same business, and of the same sex (male).

You don't have to take a statistics class to know that hardly counts as a representative sample of opinions.

You're assuming the majority of people who buy these game will hate them. In the case of HSM:SI, most likely bought it either because they like the movies and would love to sing the soundtrack, or know people who do.

You're worry is assuming either that shovelware is a new thing, or that shovelware will suddenly turn people off now that they are on the Wii.

Either one is false, and therefore not legitimate ground for this worry. Shovelware has been a major problem for other hit systems.

I repeat. SHOVELWARE HAS BEEN A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR OTHER HIT SYSTEMS. The all caps are to make that point clear. The Wii will not fail due to some people pretending the Wii is magically filling with some new kind of drek. This drek also sold on the PS2, and the Gameboy line. If those systems were hits, how can this hurt the Wii?

If your worry was legitimate, there would already be signs. So far, the worst ranked games are also largely the lowest selling. By your logic, they should be hits, causing diminishing returns. Also, with the Wii being out this long, there should already be signs of this. There are none, so your worry is not legitmate.

You want a legitimate worry, try basing one on actual history and facts. The history and facts here say your worry is wrong. 

Words of Wisdom has a valid concern. What he is saying is that people will buy games and if they buy enough crappy games, then they have a formed opinion. While it may not prove true, it is true to them because of their experience with the poor games they bought.

Say some parents buy a Wii for Christmas, they pickup High School Musical, Happy Feet, Cars, and several other movie cross-over games. These games usually are not nearly as good as they could be. They are missing something and someone can usually tell.

The problem with the fear is that they could just go another game. If they don't like that they get another game, if they don't like that... ad infinitum, up to the point where they can't get anymore due to lack of resources. Eventually they would have a good chance of picking up a good game every now and then.

So to refresh it is a valid concern, but is not all that common a reality.

shovelware FTW!?!?!?!

Shovelware is a new thing to the market Nintendo is now targeting.  Gamers know what to avoid (usually), but a lot of the people Nintendo is trying to reach especially in the older and younger crowds don't.  There's no one holding up a big neon flashing sign saying "Movie games are usually bad, avoid Cars!" for them.  They don't know any better.  Just because we've been seeing it and recognizing it for years doesn't mean everyone has.  Get off your high horse and recognize you're no longer Nintendo's only target.  Your opinions and knowledge don't represent everyone.

What do you mean we'd already be seeing signs?  Do you think the Wii got the mini-game stigma out of thin air?  Where do you think that came from?  Developers are starting to put down the Wii saying that their games won't sell/the demographic doesn't suit their needs.  Other developers are making all that shovelware and succeeding.  These companies making shovelware aren't disappearing, they're growing.  A month or two ago we had the thread on the company that was forcasting a hundred or so shovelware games for 2008 because those games are becoming very successful.

 Could you please go into more detail about the sentence I bolded? I realize that a few developers, most notably Epic Games, do feel this way, but it seems to me that the tide is going in the opposite direction. What am I missing?

Games.  A lot of the developers that are giving props to the Wii are announcing games for the PS360...  There's a lot more "I'd kind of like to make a game for the Wii" than "We're making a Wii game" going around.  Or that's my impression of it anyway.

"Gamers know what to avoid (usually), but a lot of the people Nintendo is trying to reach especially in the older and younger crowds don't."

They also don't like the games we do, and may actually like some of the game we might consider shovelware, so this is a bunk point, because it refuses to acknowledge varied tastes.

That is unless you meant games that are practically unplayable, in which case, the point is bunk because it refuses to acknowledge those games are some of the worst sellers on the system.

"Developers are starting to put down the Wii saying that their games won't sell/the demographic doesn't suit their needs."

Starting? That is just a lie. They've been saying this for about a year, to excuse why they didn't jump on the Wii. You actually think they are being honest about it now? It's still just excuses.

"These companies making shovelware aren't disappearing, they're growing."

Wait a second. Your argument is about games that will turn people off of the Wii. See varied tastes again. You are assuming to speak for these new gamers' tastes, and that you know what they all like. You fail, for arrogance.

I am this close to flipping you the bird for that. How dare you pretend you know what those people are going to like. And don't you dare pretend I'm doing the same. I'm going by actual figures. And the figures state that the games that are truly bad, in the sense that the gameplay is objectively poor and unresponsive, the games that would truly turn people off of the Wii, are some of the worst selling on the system.

If games like Ninjabread Man, Farcry Veneance, Jenga, and Cruis'n, sold more than 60,000 copies, you might have a point. Yet since that is the best any of those games sold (there in the database), this worry about the newbies getting turned off by awful games is based more on you assuming these newbies have the same tastes are hardcore gamers, than actual data suggesting they are getting turned off by the sovelware that is at least playable.